Gangotri...

Discussion in 'Hinduism' started by IlUvMuSIc, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    As I said at the start, there is a clash of cultural values here.

    In the UK at any rate, since the 19th c. the idea that euthanasia of sick animals is the correct thing has gained almost universal acceptance.

    Once, a few years ago, I was walking in a country lane with a friend when we saw a sick rabbit lying in the grass verge. I went over and saw that it was in the terminal stages of myximitosis, it's eyes had virtually disolved into foam, and its head was hideously swollen. It was very clearly in great distress.

    (note: myximitosis is a man made disease which was introduced in Britain after WWII to bring down the rabbit population - it was controversial at the time, and succeeeded in nearly wiping out wild rabits. The descendents of the bunnys who survived developed a general immunity, and cases of this disease are not not common nowadays, although it has never entirely disappeared)

    Back to my story - my pal wanted to take the rabbit to a vet - I stopped the argument short by picking it up and very quickly killing it by breaking it's neck. I had seem rabbits killed before by this method, and it is instantaneous.
    I will gladly face any karma I thus accrued.
    To let it live would have been just to allow a pointless suffering to the creature which had no way to understand or come to terms with it. And it's rabbit karma to be born in a country where a fatal rabbit disease had been introduced doesn't impress me much as an argumnt that I should have left it there ar taken it to a vet , by which time judging from its state it would have expired anyway. And if it had lived long enough to be seen by a vet, what would he have done? Immediately put it down.

    So I'm as guilty as the vet in this story of the HK cow. Yet my conscience is clear.
     
  2. Bhaskar

    Bhaskar Members

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    It is not a doctor's dharma to save a patient from death. If that were the work of a doctor, no doctor anywhere in the world could ever have met with success.

    A doctor's dharma is to ensure that there is minimal suffering and when the likelihood of a painfree life is no longer present then it is the most humane practice to allow people to leave their bodies.

    So perhaps their karmic reaction is of freeing someone from great pain and suffering. Not doing so, might well result in the negative karma of failing to alleviate the suffering of another.

    If quoting scripture would cast further light on this:

    ya enam veti hantaaram yah cha enam manyate hatam
    ubhau tau na vijaanitah na ayam hanti na hanyate

    Neither he who thinks he has been killed nor he who thinks he has killed understands the truth - nobody can ever kill or be killed.
     
  3. Jedi

    Jedi Self Banned

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    The doctor's dharma is to give his best treatment possible to the patient, not give up and kill him because he can't stand the patient's pain.

    Sometimes pain is necessary, for instance when a doctor orders patient to walk with the physical therapist when that patient just had a by-pass surgery, the doctor is putting the patient through great suffering in order to try to get the patient healthy.

    If you cannot offer any help, don't kill the guy is all I am saying. Tell me bhaskar, if you were a doctor and you knew a person who has brain cancer and has lost his ability to make decisions , but is going to die in a week, would you euthanise him?
    I can say right away that I wouldn't, even when I can't stand the pain of the person, it is not my place to take a life , it is my place to save one.

    The cow was in the same situation as this dying man, what makes it so different? because it is a cow and not a man? who are you to say that a cow's life is less precious than a human's life when the same paramatma is in them both?


    Use it in the context Bhaskar, at an absolute level no one kills anyone.

    But Hinduism , our religion requires us to follow a certain level of ahimsa so that we may rise to the level of sattva. Even those who have transcended sattva level, still follow these codes for the sake of aiding those who are still affected by the three modes of material nature, then what about you and me and the rest of the world? we are simpletons, we need to follow dharma.

    here are some other legitimizing quotes for you:

    The very name of the cows is aghnya, indicating that they should never be slaughtered. Who, then could slay them? Surely, one who kills a cow or a bull commits the most heinous crime.
    Mahabharata, Shantiparva

    You must not use your God-given body for killing God's creatures, whether they are human, animal or whatever.
    Yajur Veda Samhita 12.32.

    Those noble souls who practice meditation and other yogic ways, who are ever careful about all beings, who protect all animals, are the ones who are actually serious about spiritual practices.
    Atharva Veda Samhita 19.48.5

    Protect both our species, two-legged and four-legged. Both food and water for their needs supply. May they with us increase in stature and strength. Save us from hurt all our days, O Powers!
    Rig Veda Samhita 10.37.11.
     
  4. Jedi

    Jedi Self Banned

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    It is indeed a sad state of affairs that a government has the power to introduce a new disease like that. If I were you, I would have tried to give it shelter and food and make its last days as pleasant as possible.

    Maybe like you say , perhaps it is a difference in culture or perhaps it is a difference in consciousness. I say this because at one point Indian people in the Indian culture had no trouble with burning a woman alive when her husband died or at present, alot of Indians from poor families think killing baby girls is "understandable" because girls only "burden" the family with the dowry problems. Terrible really.

    So maybe It could just be a difference in conscious understanding of the world altogether. I am not saying that I see the paramatma in all, because it is a fact that I do not see it, but the idea that there is paramatma in it who is keeping a living being alive is enough to let it live.
     
  5. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Yes - it's difficult because even if we don't see God in everything, we know He is there.

    On the question of the rabbit - if you'd seen a rabbit in the final stages of MX. you'd realize that literally nothing could be done for it. It is a truly horrible thing. That particular rabbit was I'd guess only a couple of hours away from death. Introducing this disease was a very bad thing, and I doubt they'd get away with it now - it was done just after the war when people were still getting over that. Today it would provoke a huge outcry.
     
  6. Bhaskar

    Bhaskar Members

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    The situations you speak of are where there is scope for recovery and comfortable living.

    Yes.
    I never said anything about cows being less precious or treating them differently. I would euthanize a human and a human just as easily.



    Wonderful. Very noble, very true. Tell me, do you know how many healthy, innocent cows are tortured for the milk/butter/dairy you consume? Your shoes are made of leather, and probably assembled by children in Chinese sweat shops. How many bacteria die when you digest food or take pills? Are their lives less valuable than the cow?
    When perfectly healthy animals are subjected to suffering and pain for the food and drink we consume, I feel it is totally hypocritical to complain about euthanising one that was in the advanced stages of incurable disease.
     
  7. Jedi

    Jedi Self Banned

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    "Tell me bhaskar, if you were a doctor and you knew a person who has brain cancer and has lost his ability to make decisions , but is going to die in a week, would you euthanise him? Answer: Yes"

    Bhaskar, you may think it is easy to kill a man who is unable to tell you whether he wants to live or die (loss of ability to make decisions), because he is going to die anyway, but it is murder to do so.

    Also, although it is true that my shoes are probably made by chinese children in sweatshops and by the slaughter of innocent cows, But I am speaking about purity at an individual level. The wearer of the shoe did not ask the chinese to have a communist government that persecutes its own people. Nor did the wearer ask the cows to be slaughtered or that shoes be made with leather. He has no conscious control over how the milk is made when all milk in the grocery store is made the same way.

    I am talking about those decisions that we have conscious control over. As a future doctor, I find it really hypocritical when a doctor uses his medical knowledge to kill when he cannot save.
     
  8. Bhaskar

    Bhaskar Members

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    You do have control over these things. If it weren't for consumers who lap up these products, such things would not be happening. By buying into it, you become a direct contributor to it. And you do have a choice not to - you can easily live without these things. However, the convenience of these things takes precedence over the suffering out of which they are born. Sorry, but you can't isolate yourself and wash your hands of it. Every time you eat a slcie of cheese, you're eating with it the suffering of the cows it came from.
     
  9. Jedi

    Jedi Self Banned

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    Sure, just don't go and eat at Mc Donalds or burger king, refrain from eating meat. We can do our best to avoid such atrocities.

    Yes sad state of affairs, that it is. Terrible really.

    Anyway, like i said, life is precious, they should have left that cow alone.
     
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