"That those who know whats best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves" from 'Witch Hunt' by Rush we should never be saved from ourselves. People don't have any natural rights, that's bullshit. We only have the rights we claim for ourselves, and that we stand up for if they are threatened. I claim the right to put whatever the hell I want into my body, to explore my own brain as I see fit. I don't choose to shoot heroin or smoke crack, but I claim that right, and would do those hard drugs regardless of our tribe's laws if I wanted to.
Those are natural rights bro. As humans we have the right to walk the earth and commune with it. When I think about the idea that OTHER humans are telling us no and locking us up in cages for plants, it is absolutely mind blowing.
Technically, "natural rights" are everything then. We are born with the "natural right" to do whatever the fuck we want, when we want it. Thus, one cannot truly have all your "natural rights" unless you abolish society and any form of governing body... Why shouldn't murder be legal then? Murder is a "natural right." I have the right to pick up a gun and shoot someone in the head, because its MY body, MY finger pulling the trigger, and MY choice. So the whole "natural rights" idea just seems a little hypocritical. I dont know... am I understanding this right? Im super-baked and I'm having a hard time grabbing thoughts and putting them down right now haha. And what about something like anthrax or smallpox? You're telling me I should have the right to shoot up a syringe of smallpox and then intermingle with the rest of you? Its MY body, so you cant tell me what I can/cannot put into it, correct? Either way, all I'm sayin is I dont think every drug should be legal... That seems really fucked up. Too much filthy and disgusting shit that does nothing for us but bring us down.
yes we really have the natural right to anything, if that is your definition of it. I'm not talking about natural rights, I'm talking about practical rights. and shooting a disease is different, because infectuous diseases would harm other people (which would still be illegal), where as tweaking is only hurting yourself
on the topic of rights in general, in many cases they don't really mean anything Like the right to free speech for example Yes, you can say whatever you want, its your right However, the government and media will do everything they can to keep people from listening to you (the news for example) So yes, you have the right to free speech, but not the right to be heard
Jesus, look man. You are way more advanced than I probably sounded at 17, but you are completely misunderstanding this. God, the creator, whatever the hell it is put us here to exist. The right to life is a natural right. As the founders of our country put it inalienablie rights. Murder, rape, theft, property crimes, etc are all things that violate the rights of others and its pretty much universally accepted that we need some form of govt or social order to control those. Using drugs, gambling, prostitution and things like that are victimless in the sense that the people involved are consenting, and they are not directly affecting other people negatively. There might be some damage done to society by these things, but the difference is intent. You really need to think about this if you ask me. I'm so sick of hearing people say oh if we legalize drugs why don't we legalize murder too. That is just fucking ridiculous. It amazes me how the govt can arbitrarily criminalize things that shouldnt be crimes, then society at large begins to actually equate them with heinous acts against other humans.
I see what you mean. But what, exactly, do I need to think about? If you think the government is at fault for my dissaproval of dirty drugs.. you are gravely fucking mistaken. I've seen the shit first-hand, I don't need anyone to preach to me about what it does, believe me, I fucking got it. So you can play the "your just brainwashed by society/government" card all day, but the bottom line is that its just not necessarily true... and oh so fucking cliche at that... What it comes down to, is I don't care to watch society go to shit (and dont even try telling me the quality of society will improve with abundant hard drug use), and I don't care to watch junkies get fucked up legally. We know there is a correlation with crime, we know they are poisons, we know they are influential on others... So, ultimately, I would say, no, the right to use whatever drugs you please is NOT a natural right. On some level or another, it is affecting those around you. And guess what? Those people being affected? They have rights too
too bad we cant just get along and run around naked all the time without any laws. thatd be the shit. but there are wackos that cause problems in society and thats why we need all the bullshit laws. but one law that could definatly be changed with no harm done is the laws on marijuana...
Youre already thinking about it. That wasnt the right thing to say. I meant by that statement that there are other ways of thinking about this that you might not have considered. And damn easy man, no need to get all defensive I wasnt pointing to you, it is all of us. This shit has been going on for 7 decades. Wasnt trying to personlize that or sound like a dick. And maybe the govt brainwashing talk is such a cliche because its reality. I have seen firsthand the effects of hard drugs too. Also racing motocross, snowboarding, binging on trans fats, alcohol both chronic alcoholism and drunk shitheads, tobacco, psych meds and pk's, and a bunch of other stuff that destroyed peoples bodies, lives, and others around them. Should we criminalize all that too? The reason there is a correlation with crime is because the addicts have to exist in criminal markets. No outside social support for getting away from their lifestyles, no medical supervision because they are afraid of getting arrested, losing their kids, losing their house etc. Because the drugs are distributed in unregulated markets, the prices are insane. Heroin is made from flowers and its worth more in its weight than gold. Junkies rob and steal because they are sick with a serious addiction and the chemicals they need are worth more than fucking gold. I dont know how you got to anarchism, legalizing drugs would not create anarchism. Drug abuse is a medical and social issue, not criminal. By banning drugs the govt is creating a bunch of illegal markets and activity, because addiction is a disease of humanity. Punishing people is not going to fix it. Social support and knowledge go a lot further. I'm not advocating hard drug use or saying I should be able to go to 7-11 and buy some crack. But a persons doctor should be able to supervise and ween a hardcore addiction, and someone needs to get all of this money accounted for. The drug trade is massive and a lot of that money goes to some fucked up people. These types of issues go back to the puritans. I would probably be some witch running around in the woods tripping on ergot, and you would be the puritan burning me at the stake haha. This post is going all over the place because I'm really baked. But in some areas in europe they now give daily maintenance injections of heroin to addicts. They have found that when the person isnt suffering from withdrawal and dying for a hit to equalize again, they can do things like get and hold jobs rather than robbing people on the street. Think of all the pill junkies and alcoholics throughout corporate america. If those substances suddenly became illegal and ridiculously overinflated, they might be committing some crimes too. When I was 15, 16, and 17 I was really addicted to nicotine but couldnt legally buy it. I stole cigarettes a ton of times because open access was restricted and I was addicted. I would have rather paid for them, but all I cared about was I had some cigs.
I've been watching this thread but I think deviate just convinced me with that last long post. You both have good arguments though.
One more thing about natural rights and drug use. I'm not necc under the impression using man made drugs is a natural right. I think control of our own bodies and lives is though which is why I lean way more toward the notion of drug use being a right. My main arguements when it comes to hard drugs are black markets fund organized crime, and the people are sick. We spend way more money enforcing prohibition than we would have to spend if we focused on education and treatment. Also the overall rate of people addicted to drugs has not been reduced with 70 years of gestapo style prohibition. But one thing I am positive about is when it comes to organic drugs like weed, shrooms, peyote, salvia, etc. Those things are given to us by something much bigger than ourselves and it is not the place of any of us to prohibit nature.
Have you seen or read One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It kind of takes a look at that, people locked away indefinitely for being a little different or eccentric. It was really bad in the 60s. There were loony bins everywhere, full of normal people who were just in rough spots of life. And until a supreme court ruling, there was nothing keeping the state psychiatrists from holding a person forever. Many people who plead insanity were doing waaay more time in the hospital than they would have if convicted and incarcerated. Then they de-institutionalized, meaning much of the practices in psychiatry became outpatient programs rather than inpatient. Then nixon and reagan ramped up the drug war, and now we have more prisoners than any other nation in the world including russia and china. Both per capita and overall. We have 4% of the world population, and we hold 25% of the worlds prisoners. So now we have prisons everywhere, full beyond capacity most of the time, some of them even private. Yup, private corporations own prisons and rent by the bed to the state. The majority of federal prisoners are there on drug charges, and keep in mind that many of the people who become addicted to drugs in the first place have serious psychological issues. So the drug war was in effect a way to re-institutionalize the people who have trouble living. And since its not only psychologically based criteria like a mental hospital, the state has found an inclusive way to lock up everyone that is a threat to them, or they simply don't like. Black people, Mexicans, Hippies, poverty stricken hopeless individuals, you name it. And they are all mixed together in a separate, brutally violent, evil society. Caged, beaten, raped, driven insane, degraded, dehumanized. Way to go, America. For the corporations, by the corporations. Just as sick and twisted as any other empire in history. I do not believe this is how we as humans should treat other humans.
Indeed it is You a fan? Anyways, I do see what you are saying. After churning this over in my head for a couple days, I have to say I'm starting to agree with you. I guess I just needed a good toke and some deep-thought to keep me grounded (last night I burned huge and thought long and hard about this). It is ridiculous that peoples lives are being destroyed and they are being deemed criminals for nature, and you're absolutely right- that is mind-boggling. I still don't support what legalizing drugs would do... but I guess thats the point. It doesn't matter whether or not I support it, being as I am not in control of others and how they may or may not choose to live their lives. We really are not in freedom, when people have come along and played "moral superiority" by telling us what we cant put in OUR bodies. That brings to mind the archaic "divine-right rule"- where leading officials justified their actions because they were somehow chosen by a higher power to do what they do. They have no right to play God- and aside from keeping us safe, they shouldn't be allowed any control over how we live our lives- so long as we don't affect the lives of others. I don't know... On one hand, its a sad day when crack and meth and shit is openly tolerated. On the other hand, we should have probably had these rights throughout history... I agree. My body is my body. What I choose to do with it; my business. I do feel that that is a right nobody should be denied. Sorry if I acted like a douche... I dont know, perspectives change, what can I say?
Thanks man, I appreciate that. I've since come to understand what you mean, that putting these oppressive laws which govern how we live our life can have affects on your mental well-being. I've been thinking a lot lately on how much we are restricted by laws that basically tell us what we must become... which begs the question; what would it be like to really live in a society that appreciates the true weight of human decisions? One that accepts our right over our body and our thought process... It really seems to put a burden on you, doesn't it? Its like having a weight on your shoulders you cant remove, knowing that theres really nothing we can do to change it... and the thought of a relatively free society has been tugging on my mind. What would it be like? We should know. We have the RIGHT to know. Kinda frustrating, at the very least.
