Can't stand: "its cool if you eat meat, its a personal choice"

You still haven't explained how killing animals for some reasons is somehow morally better than killing them for others.

 

A hero indeed.

Only a badass could eat another dude's penis...together with the other dude.

 

killing for food is evil. Killing for interwebs is OK

 

Ok, well I’m not so concerned with killing as I am with suffering (although perhaps I have been using these terms interchangeably) Animals (with the exception of maybe dolphins and the great apes) never really rise the level of having a right to life. One of the most basic requirements before we start talking about a right to life is to have an interest in your future existence, that is to have a conception of the future. Since the future is an abstract idea and you can never experience the future you really need language to have a conception of the future and very few animals come close to achieving that.

So, as far as I’m concerned killing an animal is not what concerns me, it is the intense suffering that the animal goes through in modern factory farming. An instant death, like a salmon fry getting shot through a hydro-dam turbine doesn’t really bother me too much. This is where the accidental killing of animals is different than the purposeful factory farming of animals. It is the difference between often accidental instantaneous death and purposeful infliction of a life of suffering. That being said, I don’t like dams and I have been involved in campaigns to remove the lower Snake River dams.

I’m not saying I’m morally perfect, but suffering is morally significant and I try to reduce it as much as I can.

 

Then your argument isn't pro-vegetarian, its anti-factory farm which is a huge difference. Logically then, how can you be against hunting or fishing or meat consumption in general?

 

I would probably be that person you quoted in your initial post. I do think its a personal choice, like religion is a personal choice. I don't think that veggies are better that omnis based on diet alone. I also don't think that I am better than other veggies/vegans because of my above stated belief.

I did, however, grow up surrounded by cattle farms, farmers and meat eaters. If I expected them to accept me and my eatting habits (which they have) how could I turn around and judge them negativly based on theirs?

 

Over 20 years (it freaks me out to say that) of going back and forth between veganism to omnivorism (including ten years of veganism). I have found this one of the hardest issues to reconcile.

I can argue both sides of this issue. if other animals kill and eat meat, why shouldn't we? It's only a moral issue because we make it one. In other words, I have to agree with those here that say it is a choice to make it a moral issue.

Who is really superior, I think some meat eaters would argue their way of life is superior. Higher sources of protein, predatory skill, diet diversity, humanely killed grain fed, organic beef.

Vegans and vegtarians can argue similarly, better diet, less cruelty. smaller ecofoot print.

Depending on the frame from which you are judging, one method could be superior to another.

We clearly live, at least in this country, in a omivore dominated society. Most never have the opportunity to experience or question veganism. Some get turned off by what the perceive to be militantism.

I think the debate in all its forms has a place. However, if you want to encourage change and get someone to take a moment to see things from your perspective, you can either try to force your views or encourage curiosity and exploration.

Which is more effective? I'll leave that choice up to you and the historical perspectives freely available to explore.

 

Neither is more superior, I think we all should be able to make our own choices. If someone who eats meat wants to look up how animals are treated then they can do that and handle it their own way. But I think its really important to respect people's choices, especially if you want to be respected for yours. Humans evolved eating other animals and some people believe that they should still be doing that and thats fine, and you should respect that. I hate factory farms too, if animals were treated in a more humane way I'd have less of a problem with it but they're not so I see why vegetarians want to push that on people. But nobody likes other's beliefs forced upon them...
I read a quote the other day by Paul McCartney that said if factory farms had glass walls everyone would be vegetarian.

 

I agree that it is a personal choice and it's wrong to force our beliefs onto other people. Morals are very subjective. For me to pick up a gun and shoot someone is very very wrong no matter what the circumstances. For another to pick up a gun and go shoot someone in another country to try to get a cheaper price for oil is totally okay. Do I agree with their moral values, no. But do I respect their right to make that decision, yes. And I expect them to respect my decision to protest their actions.

Or to have sex outside of marriage is fine with me. For others it is a "sin" or totally against their moral values.

I became a veggie for my own health reasons. I have some concerns for the animals that are being eaten. I have more serious concerns for the little baby animals that are being deprived of their mother's presence and her milk. But that is not the main reason I am veggie. I respect other people's right to fight for animal rights and be militant about it. And I expect them to respect my right to be veggie for health reasons. And to not inflict their moral judgements on me. Everyone has something that is morally right or wrong for them. It is not universal. My choices are not any better or worse that others. To me it is morally wrong to drive an SUV in a world where gas is at a shortage but to others, it is their preferred method of transportation.

We can not and should not legislate morality. It is not universal.

Kathi

 

Your post just made me think of two great books: Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, which brought about the creation of the USDA, and Fast Food Nation...

You might enjoy both reads..

 

What if you're the one being shot?

 

I think it is morally wrong for you to be harming those helpless little vegetables. They are grown together in small areas, soley for the purpose if eating them. That is NOT humane at all!

However, since some of you right thinking vegetarians seem to be willing to allow me to eat my meat in peace, I will in turn allow you to eat your veggies in peace as well. Good day sir.

 

How is bitching out every meat-eater you see going to do any good? It's just gonna piss them off. It's there to eat, and they can eat it if they want to without being assaulted for it. I don't believe in eating meat, but if someone else does, fine. We can all just behave according to our beliefs. You'll win over a lot more people with polite and well-reasoned argument than with bitching and acting holier-than-thou.

 

Rubin, Here's a link for a blowup jesus dolls for sex.
(Could I actually make that up?)
Im having trouble with the link, but stay tuned.

 

Fucking Christ, now that's some shit right there.

 

When I met my partner almost 6 years ago, I smoked cigarettes. (This is ging somewhere, I swear). He was formerly a heavy smoker, but had been without for 8 or 9 years at that time. I was bad about it - I smoked a lot, I smoked around him, I smoked in his (our) van... He was continually patient and kind about it, even though he made it clear that he didn't like it.

He recognized the path I was on. He lovingly assured me (completely unsolicited, mind you) that one day I would "grow out" of smoking, just find myself done with it. He was right. About four years ago, smoking finally quit me. Just as he said, I woke up one morning and went out to have my morning smoke... roled it up, lit it, took a drag, and knew then and their that I didn't want this anymore. I put it out without hitting it one more time, and haven't smoked since then.

All that happened there was that he saw the path I was walking down, and recognized an inevitable marker on it.

When we met, we were both former vegetarians. In our lives together we ate meat for a while, and got fed up with it, hitting that point on the path again together. We both re-converted to veg at the same time. A few months ago, I decided to go vegan. I made this transition alone.

We can both see that we are still on the same path. I just hit that particular bend first, no biggie. Now, for the first time, I understand how he felt about the smoking. It's not that I'm smarter or more evolved, on some higher mental plane or something. I just happened to get to this particular point first. Now it's my turn to be loving and patient, as I try to be with everyone, and when he decides it's his time I will be there to help transition him away from his cheese.

Harassing, lecturing, and annoying meat-eaters gets us nowhere. When they are ready to change, they will ask and listen. In the meantime all we can do is live our lives. I know sometimes it's frustrating. Try giving advice to new veg's who are interested - work on legislation for better farming practices, spend all this energy in a place that it can help. But just harassing meat-eaters gets us nothing but a lot of pissed off meat-eaters who think vegetarians are self-righteous assholes.

 

Hummblebee, that was AWESOME! Thank you SO much! (((((((((Hugs!!!))))))))))

love,
mom

 

If I'm stealing their oil I deserve to be shot.

 

props to humblebee



This is incredibly pointless.

Live & let live, my friends.

"One who truly believes in his cause does not waste his time bashing anothers with obnoxious remarks, but rather simply teaches their own with humble disposition."