The anti-hero as a hero.

How many movies have you seen and stories you have read where the anti- hero is almost a hero, or Is the hero?

Dustin Hoffman agreed to do another anti-hero character even though he had sworn not to do that since doing (midnight) Cowboy.

When he agreed to do it, ironically the movie title was called "hero".
The movie played around with the concept of what we consider to be a be a hero.

I had heard the term anti-hero before, but even back in 1977 the concept wasn't used that much in movies, or was it?

When I first saw Star wars I thought that Han Solo's character was out of place, since the movie seemed to me to be like a fantasy space tale with gurus and lords of darkenes; however making him into almost a cowboy really worked well.

I didn't like the Han Solo character at first, since he seemed like a troll in many ways, and not interested in much except teasing others and making money. Had anyone else played him besides Ford maybe he wouldn' have stayed too long.

"the only neck I'm interested in saving is mine, kid"

" But she's is a princess... she is rich, she can pay you a lot more than you can imagine".

" oh yea?....well I can imagine quite a bit"

 

When you think about it the heroic-antihero in hollywood productions isnt really an antihero. What it is is a defiance rather than an imorality and if defieance lapses in to immorality we find that it's simply survival. I did it because I had to. I had no other way to survive would be the antihero's excuse and hollywood sees survival by any means other than socialism as acceptable - so long as the hero doesnt rob the state or scrounge off the state and as long as the antihero is broadly speaking a patriot thats ok !!!Fuck everyonelse over as a capitalist or as some pig of a soldier or cop but dont fuck up the state is the message. Its a very simplistic message of propoganda that any redneck will be able to understand and that is all. The idea being that the only crime is getting caught or being unpatriotic or robbing the state. It is the typical ammerican capitalist idea - its what makes their "society" unworkable, crass, and banal. The message of the antihero is selfish greed and personal glory

 

I will have to go along with Ronald on this.

One of my favourite authors, Emile Zola, a pioneer of naturalism, was responsible of one of the greatest works of literature which illustrate the antihero, "Thérèse Raquin".

Quote from Wikipedia:

I can't recommend this book enough and, on a similar basis, if we shift to a more modern setting, then "Brighton Rock" stands almost like a monument of the antihero in modern literature.

Quote from Wikipedia:

Regardin the world of "scriptwriting" the era of the antihero was nothing new, and even in the 1940s, a long time ago in a galaxy right here, Rett Butler was driving women wild even though he "didn't give a damn".

The icon that brought the reality of the antihero home was the cool, mercenary, selfish, and yet kind-when-required attitude of the 'man with no name'. Clint Eastwood became a legend from the trilogy that defined the western, and also the gun ideology which has ensnared America to the present day (see GuncrazyUSA in the Protest Forum). Sergio Leone was an exceptional director, who understood the sign of the times well, and used America's relatively short history as a vehicle for his dictum emphasizing a society that is increasingly becoming numb to tragedy, while concentrating on its own advancement, and feigning civility.

 

I have always been aware of the importance in USA propoganda of the antihero. It has served the usa well, as it promotes the idea that by any means get the job done - we dont give a toss who gets screwed over as long as the political landscape isnt changed by your criminal activity. Regardless of the fact that most politicians are corrupt as fuck.
The antihero must also not die and be despised he must have people who will miss him, and as such in hollywood the antihero is there to show you how far you can bend the rules. But the point being dont fuck with politicians! As in "three days of the condor where a hero becomes an antihero because he ends in a situation of impotence. He conflicts with the establishment in a way that renders his actions impotent - he gets caught by them, and though he could have been seen as a hero he is a antihero in the real sense of the word. Antihero turned hero would not be caught

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Days_of_the_Condor

 

"Let us not forget "Casablanca" and Humphrey Boggard who would always play a questionable character in most movies, before Superman's suicide which led to the assumption that if you get type-casted into a single-type role you are doomed".

EXP.

After George Reeve's suicide it was assumed that if you play only one type of character,(many believe he commited suicide, but others had proof that he was murdered) this will end up you not having many offers, if "your" type of personage did not call for a script, and you'd find yourself holding a gun to your head because of lack of work.

Nowadays, at least in Hollywood you can allways expect all actors to try every possible role as long as it is different from the one they played before. In Boggard's days actors would play pretty much the same character, but in different stories. Almost like a series.

This is what I meant.

 

urm yah ! ahhhh ya lost me there hari, come again some time !

Heroes are a bit cheesey like that spy who keeps saying "oh shag me" and shagadelic.

Also they are a bit dumb like arnie and rambo,

the antihero is usually quite smart if a bit deranged.
Dumb lame brained idiots like Arnie, and rambo, can never play the parts of antiheroes as they are seroiusly mentally retarded in real life and just dont understand what directors want I think.

More intellectual people like the diminutive Dustin Hoffman, sometimes known as the "poison dwarf", are able to play transvestites like when he was mrs doubtfire in that film where he played the part of a woman actor.
That is very much the antihero as most guys cant stand the thought of snogging a transvestite but I bet even some of you lot had a stiffy watching hoffman in that role

 

I think damn near every form of popular fiction stars an antihero these days. It's becoming a little overdone.
I can see the writers now...
"We gave him a scar or something, right?"
"Yeah but his dark sunglasses hide it...but not the scars on his SOUL!"
"A cigarette too right? He smokes to show his hatred for himself, right?"
"He was a former soldier too, right?"
"Yes it's where he killed a man and gave up on god, because god gave up on him"
"But he'd still never shoot a priest?"
"He would, but only in the knee."

"also let's make him an alcoholic."

 

Also they could give him a parrot on his shoulder and make him say "ahhh haaar me hearties, get aboard and let this ship full of salty sea dogs take on the spanish fleet"
And he hobbles round on a crutch, whilst snarling at people, and ripping them open with a sabre, but then we see his gentle side where he does lacramie, and tie-dyeing as an escape from all that macho bullshit

 

I vaguely recall reading a series of books by Stephen R. Donaldson when I was on the younger side of teen that boasted an anti-hero. Lord Foul's Bane, I believe the first book was called. Don't really remember it too well though.

 

I added an explanation to my previous post,

 

The spelling is 'Bogart'.
John Wayne did tend to play pretty much the same character, as did Boris Karloff. I prefer movies in which the viewer doesn't recognize the actor/actress at all. That way the off-stage persona of the actor doesn't interfere with the story or the action. Use of unrecognized actors also keeps production costs down where they should be. Ideally there would be no movie stars, but then not everyone will agree with me on this. Same applies to overpaid sports figures.

Have to go now: the Comanches are massing for an attack just west of our homestead.

 

John wayne always played that really butch sort of macho gay role, in which he preferred the company of men and liked a rough male partner, but used women when he felt like venting his sexual frustration in the form of a spanking. He liked to beat women and sometimes kissed them but I think he saved his admiration and love for men. Somehow this meant he wqasnt gay - the formula for john wayne was
Go out on the town and drink enough alcohol to stun a whole town full of alcoholics
then have a fight. then have another fight when sober, then do some hard work and when the going gets tough spank a woman over your knee, then kiss her and then throw her to the floor and go and be pally again and get all macho with the big boys

Its all about not being gay - is what being a hero is about

I am not certain but I believe I read somewhere that he John Wayne was gay in real life. I know this is mentioned in Midnight Cowboy too.

John Wayne was always the tough hero that got the job done by brute force.
Its a matter of perception as to whether thas heroic though, as these days it would be too antihero to be seen slashing indians to death and punching people so hard they fly through the saloon doors. Back in the 50's it was acceptable but not now at all.

What about people like cool hand luke ? Also that is about a load of men cooped up together but this time the antihero proves he's not gay by eating 50 eggs
to be a hero or antihero you have to do something really absurd to prove youre not a turd burglar

 

I agree on that...I mean its weird to see Hoffman play a down and out father
who cant' keep from stealing even from his lawyer, when you still see a millionaire who probably can't cheat even on solitaire.

 

Hippies were probably the first class of Americans who felt comfortable not having to prove how macho they were by getting into fights at a drop of a dime, without being considered gay.

BTW do you know there's a street in the west Village called "gay street"?
and it's also in the gay area of NYC.

 

That's what I meant. In those days actors were known to be a certain type only, like Jene kelly, Bob Hope, Boggard, John Wayne, Reagan, and others.

 

In Britain fighting was always sneered at as a particularly stupid way to prove how manly you are, Until recently that is, and now anyone under the age of 25 that hasnt murdered someone or maimed them for life is considered PUFF NUMERO UNO ! The only way elton John survives is because its rare to find anyone under the age of 80 that has heard of him

 

We've mentioned movie actors, gentlemen, but what about figures from the literature world itself? Does anyone know any further good examples that are directly related to writing? BTW, a bit off the topic, but your current signature, Hari is brilliant. If "you" drew that then jolly well done. I like the use of colours and the way they're blended in an impressionist way. It's like a cheerful version of a Van Gogh.

 

So far every painting I have posted is my work. I have over 200 posted in another place, but so far no dollars are being made.

About the sig-comment, I thought about that the moment I posted the painting..

About the John Wayne thing and America it is a good observation. You can tell how the country evolves by it's very movies. In here I would say only 10% of the people read and I may be generous by that figure, but 100% watch a lot of television, and that includes movies. Comic book heroes too; while before Superman solved everything by punching people in the jaw, now, and in the latter movies he is manipulated easliy by his women.

 

Its because the world has been taken over by complete batty boys and they wants everyone to have a salami sandwich with them I wasnt criticising john wayne I was thinking thats what we need more of right now to combat all this homophilia thats going on.
I think hollywood should have a really intelligent version of John Wayne that not only knows his literature and history and philosophy but also knocks 10 bells of shit out of people who transgress the manly code of chivalry. Then just to show theres no hard feelings he could force a faggot to suck him off at the end of each film just to show that even though he's not gay he doesnt mind gays especially if they suck him off

 

I do think that the homosexual community is behind (no pun intended) every change that happens here...I mean look a the last Superman movie. I could stand only 9 minutes before I walked out, and this time I didn't want my money back.