Ethanol

Ethanol, one more misguided and stupid idea that only works to strip the beautiful Earth of its natural resources. Can't anyone think ahead?

 

Can you explain, what you are saying, in more detail?

 

Agriculture is known to cause and/or create environmental problems and deplete natural resources. Current oil dependence needs to be replaced with some type of renewable resource, not another scheme that adds to the depletion of natural resources.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture

 

ethinol can be very prommising, that is once they figure out how to breakdown celliluose and turn it into ethanol istead of just converting sugars and starch. Immagine if people could dispose of yard waste, branches, lawnclippings ect, and turn it into ethanol. Now that would be awsome and thats what people are working on. As it stands right now however, ethanol is not a viable alternative.

 

Jennika is right that ethanol is not a valid long-term alternative "alone", but I do believe that it can play a role in avoiding purchasing from BIG OIL companies. Yes, one long-term problem with ethanol and biodiesel when produced by agriculture (as TreePhiend mentioned, there may be other ways; algae can be used to produce biodiesel) is that agriculture increases erosion and depletes the siol of minerals, and kills soil organisms. Even organic agriculture is harmful if tillage methods are used. We must use other methods to grow things, natural methods. Yes, natural methods do exist. Look up Manasobu Fukuoka, permaculture, or forest gardening.

Second, when we burn fuels, except for hydrogen, carbon dioxide is created. While bio fuels burn cleaner and have fewer extra toxins, they still create the leading cause of global warming.

Even with a hydrogen based economy, continued mining for iron ore, alluminum, and copper is a problem. Manufaturing is hard on the invironment. Peak Copper would be the next threat.

 

But since the plants from which the biofuels were made extract more carbon from the air than is put back in from the burning of the biofuels, the result is an overall decrease.

 

Not if you had to clear a forest to start farming in the first place. Plus biofules require other inputs, such as petrolium in both fertilizers and in machines to till, plant, and harvest.

 

Define yard 'waste'. What do you have in your yard that can't be used for compost, and why is renewing the soil not as important as fueling your car. That's the thing about 'waste'. There isn't much natural material that the earth would waste if given the chance.

 

Thats an interesting point. I would call waste grass clippings, dead tree limbs, leaves ect. Yes I agree these things could be composted and used in your garden. But think about this... Have you seen a compost pile steaming on a cool morning? Compost actually throws off a lot of energy (heat) that is basically lost and unusable. producing ethanol from celulose instead of composting can capture much of that previously unusable energy. Plus there are still by-products left over from producing ethanol which can then be composted. Its a win win.

 

Hmmm. That's a good point as well. See, my agenda here is that I am hoping we don't discover feasible alternative energies. The car culture needs to come to an end. Four times as many people die each year in auto accidents that in war. I'm a peacenik too, but why don't we have anti-car rallies, and all the same kind of activities the anti-war movement has. To me this issue is four times as important as war. I have dead and crippled relatives. Why? War? No, automobiles. So although one of my best skills happens to be converting automobiles to alternative energy, I do it sparingly for people who live on the road or who aren't yuppie scum with new Jettas. Underneath it all though, I wish that cars would just go away. The emissions and use of fossil fuels are just the half of it.

 

I agree with you about the horrible happening of clearing forests to grow biofuel crops. We know what greed can do.

But, crops can be grow with draft animal power, or by simple means such as seed balling. Anyway, plowing the ground with a tractor, animal, or human is a bad choice. There is a book called The Plowman's Folly.

 

Theres plenty of land not being used for agricultural use anymore here in Canada, and I assume the situation would be the same in the US. There would be no need to clear forrests....at least for the first little while.

 

The root of the entire problem is that it takes a large amount of ENERGY to produce ethanol. It cost more to produce gallon of ethanol than it retrails for !! The US government is subsidixing ethanol production. We pay one way or the other. Fuel cell technology ie viable and ready to utilize. Feul cells are being widely used in public transportation in nothern Europe. WE.. us, have to take a stand and make this switch. But as long as we all just go with the flow, nothing is going to change. It is not about yuppies, hippies, or americans... this is about HUMAN survival. ALL of us.

 

The root of the entire problem is that it takes a large amount of ENERGY to produce ethanol. It costs more to produce gallon of ethanol than it retails for !! The US government is subsidizing ethanol production. We pay one way or the other. Fuel cell technology is viable and ready to utilize. Fuel cells are being widely used in public transportation in nothern Europe. WE.. us, have to take a stand and make this switch. But as long as we all just go with the flow, nothing is going to change. It is not about yuppies, hippies, or americans... this is about HUMAN survival. ALL of us. Yard waste, waste cooking oil, all of this is awesome, but we need a GIANT solution right NOW !! If we all switched to waste cooking oil for our cars, cooking oil would cost $25 a gallon in a year. And cooking oil is made from farm crops. More energy expended. We have to make a leap here and soon... not little steps.
I posted this and then came back to add some thought. Your yard waste. From an average size yard, or lot in the US (140'x90') you will produce enough yard waste to produce 1.5 galloons of ethanol. It will require the energy equivelant of 12 gallons of gasoline to produce that 1.5 gallons. See the problem here ??

 

Plenty of sources state there is a net energy gain in ethanol. It's not large, but neither is the scale of its production in the US. It could be made more efficient.

And maybe we don't need ethanol. Who's to say plant matter for fuel has to be in a heavily processes, liquid form?

This is the solution you offer? Fuel cells aren't exactly an energy source.

 

the by product of a fuel cell is energy... usable energy. I feel we need to jump past ethanol. It is an awesome fuel source, but there are other better solutions. In Brazil they use bio fuels. Ethanol, but they made a huge switch to this. Cars are made to use 85% ethanol. It is availbale at every station and it is great. But in the US, we are behind the curve are making it available. I know many sources say there is a net gain. And if you do not factor in the cost of producing the corn, irrigation, etc.. there is a gain. But the corn production is subsidized as well. Numbers are so easy to make fit your needs. But we have energy problems and water problems and we are running full speed into a bleak future. Most of those here are younger... what are you willing to have in the future ??

 

Fuel cells merely convert energy; they're not a source of it.

 

Very true.. here is a detail of what a fuel cell does.

How does a fuel cell work?



The following explanation and image is couresy of Ballard Power Systems.

The core of the Ballard® fuel cell consists of a membrane electrode assembly (MEA), which is placed between two flow-field plates.

The MEA consists of two electrodes, the anode and the cathode, which are each coated on one side with a thin catalyst layer and separated by a proton exchange membrane (PEM). The flow-field plates direct hydrogen to the anode and oxygen (from air) to the cathode.

When hydrogen reaches the catalyst layer, it separates into protons (hydrogen ions) and electrons.

The free electrons, produced at the anode, are conducted in the form of a usable electric current through the external circuit. At the cathode, oxygen from the air, electrons from the external circuit and protons combine to form water and heat.

The result is usable electricity. It works, it is available. But we are perfect examples of the problem. We are arguing symatics and will go get in our gas burner to go for beer tonight. We are the problem.

 

I'm not arguing semantics. I'm simply saying that fuel cells themselves don't do anything to solve the fundamental problem, that of suitable energy sources.

 

Ethanol is not a good solution. It really distracts from using a viable source of energy that doesn't pollute. If we decided to start using it, we have a renewable source of energy and no need to worry about finding alternative energy sources.