Back in the hunt!

Right, after losing my way back in 2006, I'm now back in the hunt to give the whole commune thing a go again.

My aims are to fabricate a basic humble abode (essentially a one room shelter), and develop from there. I believe making those first steps are the biggest to take, as until you have somewhere to engage in such activities its all hot air.

I have always done stuff on my own, as that is ultimatley who you can only trust and not have ones aims sent of course by others, as was much the case last year. On the other hand, having some kind of personal assistant who loves to get involved in this kind of thing but not get caught up with the responsibility of decision would be superb. Maybe there is some peeps like that out there, but not overly fussed either way.

This isnt really a "join me" advertisement at this stage, more a personal declaration to myself of turning the corner. I hope to report back in future weeks as to my future progress or lack of.

Take care

--
julesy

 

Sounds great - keep us updated

 

sounds good jules....

so what type of shelter are you looking into building?....something like a yurt or ger?

 

keep us posted!

 

A Yurt/Ger is what first captured my imagination, in fact I posted a significant number of links about these in threads gone by when fellow peeps asked about them over the past couple of years.

Nowadays I'm looking for something which is more modular and more efficient in its use of materials, as well as being more part of the landscape rather than sitting on it. CAD is your friend

 

A handmade ger from locally harvested materials (local forests and recycled)...i do not know if you can get more efficient in use of materials then that....lol....and you can join them together.....tho i would say they need more insulation then that bubble wrap crap, that stuff does not work that well....i plan on adding a good amount of recycled insulation to my ger when i build one....

so do you have property already? and i take it you are talking cob construction?

 

Have you tried some of the bubble wrap stuff? Do you mean recycled bubble wrap, or the foil-backed stuff which is actually sold as insulation?

 

yeah the foiled bubble wrap sold as insulation....

it works to reflect infrared heat as a radiate barrier ...when not blocked

but does a very poor job against insulating from cold air unlike a conductive insulation

the best bet is to use both really.....but just a radiate barrier is why alot of people complain about the modern yurts being cold ....

 

I dont understand, I thought the whole point of the foil bubble wrap stuff was that the foil REFLECTS, whilst the air bubbles handle the CONDUCTIVE side of things. In the latter case, thats exactly what voids of air of the little plastic bubbles do!

In any event, what attracted me to it was:

* affordable price, or you could cheat and make your own
* adds little bulk, and you can add several layers for this reason (as well as being cheap)
* less messy than fiberglass insulation
* far greener than polyurethane or polystyrene foams

There are of course cheaper / greener solutions in the form of recycled newspaper, or building in straw bales if going for a static structure!

 

Well the companies sales pitch sounds all wonderful ....but its not all there...yes it is a radiate barrier ....of coarse its reflectivity drops when you place it behind something, as that barrier will absorb the infrared first. The 1/8 inch of bubbles is nothing for a conductive insulation barrier. Compare the amount of air pockets in the bubble wrap per square inch ...its only a few bubbles....to that of the foam with its thousands of micro air pockets ....smaller pockets are desirable and the more micro air pockets the better....so the foam wins out on conductive resistance and the foam usually come in thicker sheets.

For with the yurt ...the reflective bubble wrap would radiate infrared back into the yurt, but as the warm inside air touches the bubble wrap the heat would be pulled thru to the cold outside air coming in contact with the oposite side all do to its poor conductive resistance ...much like that of a single pane window. This is also why moisture collects and you get mildew growth.... To solve that problem a thicker and more efficient thermal insulation is needed.

Reflective bubble wrap is light weight and flexable so it does have some benefits there a specially for a yurt/ger....and its great to help improve housing insulation when backed up with fiberglass or foam but i think you can get simple radiate barrier that would do the same without the bubbles for alot less.

Straw bales now that is a good conductive insulator ..and cheap!..but not practical for a yurt ...tho there is one guy i know who has made straw blankets for his yurt ...and that might have some possibilities.

 

Ive seen R-values of 15+ quoted for the foil-backed stuff by companies, but government test figures give a much more conservative R-value of 6, so I agree there is a lot of hype! On the other hand, polyurethane is only R-6, and Polystyrene R-5, so Im not sure its hugely inferior. My intention was to use TWO layers if necessary.

I hadnt considered the issues with damp, though I'm sure this can be engineered round. As I say, for my application it seems most suitable from a practical standpoint, not least because I expect my dwelling to be dismantled, modififed, added to and adapted to over time according to need - and for the cost saving its worth experimenting with the cheap insulation.

I have seen fibreglass quilt, essentially about 1" thick fibreglass wadding but foil backed as well, though more messy as the edges are open. I also currently live in a fairly modern abode with about 10" of fibreglass in the roof, but doesnt seem to do much!

 

Independent testers have found it to rate a R-1!

"According to NAIMA (Insulation Facts #61) manufacturers of reflective bubble pack insulations have claimed R-values for 5/16” duct wrap as high as 5.6. Their tests are done in perfect lab conditions that are seldom matched in the real world, and only hold true when those exact conditions are present. Testing in Johns Manville’s NVLAP-accredited laboratory has shown that the actual R-value for typical 5/16” thick reflective bubble-pack insulation is approximately 1.1 when tested in accordance with ASTM C 518. It takes nearly four layers of reflective bubble pack insulation to achieve the same insulation value as a Johns Manville fiber glass insulation product that has been labeled R-4!"...source

I am not sure about doubling it up would same money...i think around here it is $2.50-3.00 per foot for 4 foot wide wrap maybe cheaper for the larger rolls ...but a 4x8 foot polystyrene panel is around $10-12 dollars.

One thing i am going to look into is waste polystyrene shipping peanuts .....i do not know as of yet the R-value but as they are free they make a tempting material to use.

Yeah my current studio has like 8" of fiber glass insulation but the floor is concrete and it just sucks the heat out of the place at least when i turn the heater off, i do not think they have much or any insulation under the floor.

I have also heard fiberglass loses its r-value as the amount of moist in the air goes up.....

 

I'm not sure the source you have posted is that independant - they are after all trying to sell their own "superior" foil type stuff for pipe insulation! Either way, open to suggestions for alternatives - but "mission requirements" need to be easy to transport, and also remove again as its not a permanent structure. Though makes me chuckle that this thread was about communes and it automatically moved onto yurts/gers and things!

 

look into traditional yurts, used by the mongols. they use a felted wool lining and I believe they have a thin layer of wool, then a layer of tarps, and then a 1.5inch layer of fleted wool and another layer of tarps to keep the wool dry.

also the peice of material that covers the ring is supposed to be adjustable from the inside letting the excess heat/moisture/smoke out when needed. they were made to be very portable and should be.

the only thing I would worry about is trying to make one out of natural materials without plans would take a lot of trial and error and may get frustrating.

see these nature shows for more info, Ray Maers world of survival season one the show on mongolia and this other show called Tribes also goes to mongolia and shows taking down and putting up a yurt and the materials used and such. very interresting stuff.

 

there are plans available all over the net and many books on the subject..

 

Actually if you do a few searches those results seam to turn up alot, but you are right that was a commercial site.

I am not saying that you should not use it... thats up to you, ....just that you should beware that its not as great as they claim ....

and I know what you mean these threads get diverted quickly...lol




So how big of a struture are you thinking about?

I remember seeing an old mother earth news article about a guy who made a portable house that could be taken apart to be moved, it consisted of panels that were bolted together.

Is that what you have in mind?

 

Google "underground houses", and give that same topic a whirl on Amazon.
A few great books are out on the subject, and for pretty damn cheap you can set up some pretty awesome underground dwellings - I even read one site claiming that a whole commune did this, and literally had an underground town.

 

you mean like the "$50 and up underground house book"

that is a very interesting book ....but the shelters are not very portable

 

I had designed a few frame/panel based structures but now wonder about the feasibility of a wooden frame covered in wire mesh, and then a suitable fabric sheet (before a final covering of naturally locally available materials). Benefits include significantly cheaper, lighter and easier to transport, reduced sawing and cutting, and a more "organic" structural shape as opposed to the more mathematical shape that using panels naturally limits you to, unless you accept considerable material wasteage. I refer to such a structure as the "Hutch House", as it reminds me of a rabbit hutch, or even a chicken pen!

 

what kind of organic covering?...grass?...cattails?

and what about just using local materials for the frame like saplings?

It would allow you to build the shelter into a more "organic" shape. Besides yurts i have been looking into a wigwam like shelter with a polytarp cover for rain protection, the frame would be saplings...its raw, organic, cheap and simpler to build then a yurt .....When you move, you can discard the frame and collect a new one at your new location. So that would save weight during transport and the saplings can be picked free.

round house photo...
http://www.yurtshop.com/gallery_image8.html

wigwam construction pics are from here....
http://www.teachingdrum.org/gallery/