i was down at the bay watching the seals roll around with their babies and wiggle their back toes and do all those amazing weird seal like things, and i went to use the payphone. and i found one of these: http://www.chick.com i try to be tolerant. i try to accept and love everyone's truth. i'm personally a devoted hodgepodge of hindu, christian, and taoist (with buddhism and animism sprinkled on top), and i think you can find a common truth at the center of every theology. but i can't help it, these make me sick. read some of the tracts. they're blatantly using fear to try to convince young counterculture kids (they're very obvious about that in some places) that if they don't repent now they will burn in hell forever. if they do ANYTHING "wrong", like, say, being gay or smoking pot, or being a new ager... "satan wants everyone to think god weighs your good deeds against your bad. that's a lie. satan says there are many roads to heaven. there is only one way. 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father but by me.' no church, saints, buddha, mary, confucius, allah - no religion, can save you from going to the lake of fire. ONLY JESUS CAN!" and it's fucking scary. i knew this stuff existed, but it's like satire of itself, it's so blatantly the cliche of bible thumping fearmongers, and people, a LOT of people, are buying into it, thinking it's the most important thing in the world. if that is our omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god, a god that doesn't love us enough or have the power to keep us from eternal suffering, unless we win the religious lottery and our specific dogma happens to be the one right way, then, of course i'm worshipping the angel who rebelled. if that's how the universe really works, i'll be damned. because i will not accept that. it just really upsets me that little kids get this shit on halloween and read it and are scared for the rest of their lives. and this is the crap that turns people off to spirituality. sometimes i lose touch with why so many people are so against organized religion, especially christianity, because the jesus i love and the god i know is the exact opposite, and then something like this reminds me.
You are refering to Jack Chick. These are Jack Chick Cartoons and they have been around for forty years. Yes he was best known for his works during the 'Hippy Counterculture' days (say early 70s). Yes, people like you love Jack Chick and constantly use his 'tracts' to compel people against Christianity. Until Fred Phelps came along anyways. You might want to reexamine just why you 'fear' not having to fear anything. Christianity (even as presented by Jack Chick) is repeated and clearly teaching that there is no more fear for those in Christ. Jesus defeated Fear. There is no more need for Fear. Yet for some reason, you and others keep complaining that is a 'form of fear'. Maybe you need to think about that for a while?
like i said, i'm a christian. i don't want to compel anyone against christianity. i'm a really, really religious and spiritual person. it is my whole life. i actually spend a lot of my time trying to help people find god. i accept that jesus died and raised from the dead and everything. i just don't believe in everlasting damnation or that you need to scare people into loving god and jesus. or that anyone should hate anyone. i don't fear not having to fear anything. i said those tracts are scary, but i'm not scared of them. i would like it if i didn't fear anything, actually. and those tracts glorify "god fearing" people. most of the stories are about people who get scared into repenting. and sure, if you repent, the fear might end. but little kids shouldn't be horrified like that. they should make up their own minds by what they feel in their heart to be true. come on. they are OBVIOUSLY using fear as motivation. it says that things like astrology, hallucinogenics, halloween, and punk rock are satanic and you will burn forever in hell unless you repent. it shows cartoonish pictures of how horrible hell is. i don't see how that's not using fear. there are plenty of reasons to love jesus. you don't have to convince people by saying "love jesus or else you'll suffer excruciating pain forever".
I agree with you on almost everything you are saying. To present Christianity as a way to escape Judgement (or its consequences) is to only tell half the story and to sell it short. Repentance and forgiveness are one the way to the ultimate answer and goal - Newness of Life. Newness of Life. That is Christianitys message or certainly should be. Not half the story.
I remember Jack well...used to get handed tracts all the time when a college student in the late 60's-early '70s. I'll understate here and just say that I don't consider either Jack Chick or Fred Phelps to be positive examples. Ikdenk, the argument you just presented is what is known as circular. I'll very briefly restate it in different terms....Evangelical Christianity is a complete marketing and sales package. It first creates or exacerbates fear by tieing into the already-existing fears and self-loathing of psychologically vulnerable persons, or by utilizing the innocence of children and the adult unindoctrinated-yet-gullible, with the means of Biblical myths about Adam and Eve, original sin, satan, bodily resurrection, judgment by a wrathful God, and heaven/hell. It then provides the sole solution to now well-delineated fear with the "blood sacrifice" of Jesus Christ. The newly-"saved" believer is then, as in the case of children, involuntarily subjected to ongoing doctrinal reinforcement, or if of-age, availed of an infinite variety of belief-reinforcement material and like-minded persons and institutions. In other words, artificially-created demand and a product to satisfy it, with service after the sale.
Well in my experience the gay, pot smoking, new age, counter culture kids find all this offensive but also actually quite laughable. As an old non gay 'kid' with all the other above mentioned attributes, it seems to me that these people are seriously delusional. The last thing to expect from any of them is rationality or even basic respect for anyone not part of their absurd and archaic cult.
i've grown up with this crap. they take it and make it look like the fundamentalist is being the good guy, and twist shit to make them look god ever read "big daddy" or "in the beggining" full of lies basically. or "this was your life" hahahhaha. what the hell. when i was younger these tracts were like making me hate god. these tracts and books like it are what made me kind of be untolerant of christianity, if this is the christian worldview fuck that. its like us against them basically in those tracts.
I understand. This is clearly taught in our scriptures and quite frankly Jesus and the Apostles have a lot harsher words for the 'judgement' and 'death' that comes from being under 'the law'. Without quoting passages they use terms like 'waiting in fearfully' and 'the law bringing death' etc. Its something Jesus is all very very much aware of. Now its true that we come into Grace without having been under that Law (ok, unless your jewish). So how can that be that we would have a 'fear of judgement' and a need to escape it? Really its explained through scripture the same way its evident throughout history. Conscience. The Judeo-Christian teachings insist that its 'written on mans heart' those things which are 'wrong'. Further more ... with almost no exceptions we find the belief in a judgement worldwide. Sometimes expressed through 'Karma' or 'Judgement Day' or any sort of After-life 'Even up' of some sort. But yes, introducing the standard, the 'ruler' of good perfection is not 'in itself' fearful but becomes so when our own self is measured up against it. Its our own shortcomings and wrongdoings now seen clearly against our 'conscience' that then produce fear. So much so they drive us to the only place we can go - Jesus and his fear-removing solution. Now I guess the real question we have between us - is there 'really' a reason to believe we are judged and will fall short? If not (as you suggest) then indeed the Jews have fooled us (and themselves). If there is a good reason to believe we will face judgement then we have a 'legitimate fear'.
One of my favorite verses: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." I agree that people like that Chick guy (haha..."chick guy") are a serious source of embarassment to us christians too embarassed to declare our faith to anyone in a desire to avoid the inevitable misunderstandings that would no doubt ensue. I grew up in Texas, so I've had my share of Encounters with the Fundamentalist Kind. I largely blame them (collectively) as well as my self-loathing-inducing Catholic upbringing for driving me away from Christ for so many years. The thing you have to realize is that like most people, alot of christians are really good at VERBALIZING their faith and not so hot on ACTUALIZING it. I don't preach the bible to people verbally because I'm too busy being a kind person who preaches through DEED. It's like that quote, "They will know we are christians by our actions..." or something like that. Jesus didn't talk about how many sick people he healed. He never told his followers, "Hey guys, do you see that girl over there? I totally healed her. I can heal anyone! Go write a really bad pop-rock song about me!" AU CONTRAIRE, Jesus repeatedly tells those he healed NOT to tell anyone, presumably because he knew that if people found out, they would start to follow him just because they wanted to get physically healed, not because they were really interested in his message. He was trying to avoid what the Fundamentalists have now mastered. God can only enter through your heart--not your amygdala. -Kate PS: Punk Rock IS from the devil God wouldn't create music that shitty--His favorite music is Classic Rock, he told me years ago.
i understand what you are saying, but a person can believe there is no reason to feel you will be judged or fall short in the eyes of god, without having any influence by the jews. there are so many paradigms of consciousness in this world, that one might be so radically different from another that they can't even comprehend each other as truly existing. i can't even fathom a judging god. it's just impossible in my mind. i didn't have to be convinced by anyone, it just never occured to me that that could be the truth.
Oh there can most definately be found a seemingly inherint belief in judgement across the planet and across any spiritual paradigms. All sorts of peoples (really all peoples) held these ideas from Celts to African Bushmen to Aztecs to Egyptians and so on. Its really one of the basic concepts held by all mankind and it does reflect in different ways of course. For some its carried out through the next 'reincarnation' and for others was on sliding scales of after-life joy and/or reward and so on.. whether it was by mystical karma or specific dieties or whatnot. btw, an awareness of 'right and wrong' is as well something found throughout human history from any tribe on earth to any other no matter where and what time, Conscience. Some ability to discern 'right and wrong' and the understanding that you can 'judge' the difference. Now alot of this begs for some questions. Its has now actually become popular and acceptable for people to make a judgement about what is wrong with God having a Judgement Day. I see many people in this forum who have weighed whats right and wrong about a God who would judge them and they have judged it unfair and not acceptable. Interesting. More interesting might be wondering why you would dislike or disapprove of eternal judgement? You dont want everyone and everything judged based on the good or bad they have done on this planet? You dont? Maybe stop and think about that for a minute because far from being an 'injustice' to you or your friends maybe it would be something you hope for. After all, Do you really feel better if you know that some guy working as a priest raped kids (and never got caught) and also made alot of oil money off the Iraq war all the while he treated people like shit in his life. And he liked it. He LOVED it. Now... Wouldnt you like to think that if there really was a God that He would see to it something was 'evened-up' in the end? You really like the idea that injustices go free. I realise that many here have already judged 'eternal judgement' as being morally wrong. (interesting dilema there), but, Id encourage you to review that and ask yourself why exactly you wouldnt want to be judged for all your acts and deeds. Even if you want to imagine its by some 'cosmic force' then. But review that.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I have working knowledge of the Bible...and won't argue that Jesus isn't fully aware of all of it! Agree on conscience and judgment concepts as being widespread; the ancient Egyptian post-death scenario pops into my head...and the subject of the heart is very thoroughly examined in Hindu/Vedic scripture as well. In Hindu/Vedic tradition judgment occurs through universal law as an automatic consequence of one's actions...karma, good or bad...and can land one in a better or worse material situation in the next ordinary life, or in an aeonic but finite hell that is every bit as bad as anything Christianity has ever come up with, or conversely, in a similarly aeonic and very pleasant Heaven. However, all of these states of being are temporary. The final state is when the individual comes into full awareness of his eternal relationship with God, and this is generally a result of both conscious self-effort and divine dispensation...God gives extra help to those who are striving towards him, but can and does also grant full grace in an instant. *(repentant thief) An aside worth considering: some people...socipaths, psychopaths...are seemingly born without conscience and have no fear of consequences, before or after death. As a universalist, I don't consider Jesus the only place to go, but certainly believe that he was/is an incarnation of God and fully empowered to deliver all fallen souls. And this concept is where Christianity and eastern faith traditions do converge. Per general Hindu thought, there's no reason that Jesus wouldn't be able to bestow the mercy to liberate a sinner from samsara, the endlessly turning wheel of birth, deaths, and suffering, or from Christian-version hell. To me, the story of the repentant thief is very instructive in this regard.* The savior idea isn't unique to Christianity. There's a story about a medieval-era Hindu saint who prayed to Krishna...God...to be allowed to take the sins..."bad karma"...of every living being upon himself...and this is one minor example out of that tradition. I definitely think there's reason to believe that we'll be judged in some fashion...denying that wasn't the intent of my original post, though maybe it came off that way...I generalized on purpose there to get a discussion going. My difference of opinion/area for discussion with you is principally about how it all originates and happens, secondarily about why.
This is something I have always been intrigued with. Years ago a commentator named Art Bell (coast to coast) had a wacky roman catholicism/incarnation theory. The idea being that 'souls' of people come from a holding place (the guff) and that we had 'run out' of souls. So more and more new human beings were being born socio/psychopaths. Having 'no soul'. I dont know about that but its scary/fascinating to see human beings who do not appear to have any conscience. I often wonder if there is a very very fine line between them and us. And thats whats truly frightening. Its worth mentioning that Jesus sees himself as the Savior of mankind. Not 'The Christian God' but for all people. In fact, he carries the sins of the whole world (not 'christians sins' only) but for all humanity. Indeed the Thief on the other cross is not a 'Christian' and therefore gets 'favour'. He is only a human being who repents and sides with Jesus. Jesus is then who decides where the man goes. Im probably going to need to open a topic to itself about 'not unique' because I think we want to be clear about what that means. For starters, the Savior (Messiah) idea is straight out of Judaism but it most certainly is a concept around the world. Far from 'mitigating' Christ it is easier to make an argument FOR Christ as Messiah. The very idea that all of humanity had a concept, tradition or even say a 'yearning' or desire to think of such a thing speaks to validity as far as Im concerned. Christians in/from Hindu cultures would be served to refer to that story and see how it came to reveal itself in Christ. Curiously: The birth of Jesus is met by Three 'Wise Men' (Gurus, sages) who come from The East. Its long been speculated these were Gurus (Holy men) who already had knowledge of a Messiah Savior to come to Mankind. The best explanation I can find for Humans having this seemingly inherint concept (and ability to work the concept) of right and wrong, judgement and ultimate 'payment/rewards' is that they were intended to have it. Just as the heater in my apartment has a valve which seems to be designed to allow hot water through the pipes (or not). At the moment, my handyman tells me the Valve is not working properly. The water isnt being regulated. There are gears there that 'would' be able to do that but they are worn out or something. They are there, the 'concept' is in place and in theory they would accurately control and measure the heat and volume. But they dont. I could even argue that its just a hunk of metal with weird shapes because in effect thats all its doing now... sitting there taking up space. So, I see just about everyone has some sort of 'valve' and I conclude that even when its not working perfectly... it must have been put there for a purpose and a reason. Almost as if someone knew ahead of time there was going to be a judgement of right and wrong and accountablity for it etc. Hence the reason for the part is so very obvious. Another aspect of the criticisms that seems so very immature (spiritually) is when people want to 'hang Christianity' with the word 'Eternity'. The 'complaint' is that its 'too long'. The problem in that complaint is that we are being asked to put linear timelines into 'eternity'. We really cant get away with that because we dont grasp exactly what 'eternity' should or would mean to us in that state. Ultimately we have souls perfectly, fairly and rightly judged to be irredeamable. (Im sticking to the story we are presuming to be true). So, These souls are rightly sent away to die. Permanently. I dont see a good argument that at some point in linear time the situation should change. Another topic unto itself would be the 'non-christians go to hell' crap argument pushed by antichristians in order to scare seekers (using fear) away from Christianity. I see several members in here use that fear-based false claim to scare off seekers. In fact, this question is addressed several time in Christian teachings and makes clear that for those without the Gospel (which at that time was almost everyone on earth).... God judges people by the law written on their heart and how they respond to the light they are given. Example: Our ancient Hindu, being made aware by his conscience and heart of the right and wrong responds by seeking more light and wisdom. He responds favourably to that. Indeed, he may go as far as grasping the entire concept of a saving grace even though he does not cognitively know this as Jesus the coming Messiah out of the Jews. Still, he is responding to the light he was given. Maybe even so much so that he is chosen by God out of all mankind to travel to the East, literally responding to a 'starlight' which heralds the very physical revelation of that Messiah. So there is no 'Christian Heaven' and then some Hell for 'everyone else' and this is just a lie told by those who want to use fear to scare people away from Christianity.
