War and the Bhagavad Gita

To go back to the Sri Aurobindo quote - he says religion has mixed the 'essential with the adventitious'.

Both the Koran and the Gita do this IMO. The teachings of the Gita are set in a particular 'dramatic' form, on a battlefield. The same teachings could be given in a different form, without the martial references.
The story element is 'adventitious'. Perhaps other elements too, such as much that pertains to specifically Indian cultural norms, which just don't apply in other parts of the world.
The 'essential' elements are the teachings about yoga and so on. The possiblity of working for the transformation of one's consciousness.

The teaching that there is a higher power which we can know, and this power is love is fine. No problem with that. But if you then go on to say 'and this power is callled Allah and has only one prophet, all others being false', and then go on to prescribe exactly the social forms acceptable to the said Allah, it puts it all into a narrow and limited historical and cultural context. Breaking the mould of that context is one of the big challenges.

 

The problem seems that everyone here including myself have not transformed their consciousness to such an extent the miseries of life have ceased. Sorry if I am incorrect in this assumption. For us to start advising any solution to religion and the worlds ills seems illogical. It's like the blind leading the blind. I've often thought my posting here is pointless, mainly because I havent come anywhere close to solving my own problems, to begin advising others. This is perhaps the problem with most spiritual and religious teachers. Anyhow I am going to sign-off with my final post here, I wish everyone all the best.

 

Don't expect everyone else to take up your calling. Especially when you don't do it yourself. If you believed so strongly in what you say you'd be out there spreading the word, not arguing pointlessly in a small internet forum.

 

hehe, what "action" in this world has any point bhaskar?

Good luck philuk, I hope you find the happiness you always wanted and waited for.

 

BBB, the problem here is that the society will not be able to get to its "happiness" or peace that way. What I was pointing out in my earlier post is that what you may think to be the cause of the problem in question, may not necessarily be the cause. Maybe the problem is more complex than that, so if we try to solve this problem based on our interpretations, we will certainly make a big mess of things. This is what has happened innumerable times in history. This has happened in Iraq war, the US just barged in and made a mess of things. The same thing happened in many other instances and there are too many examples for me to list here.

 

I don't expect anyone to do anything. I'm not seeking to recruit people for some form of action, or even convince them of my view. Just trying to get some discussion going, as I said in my OP.

It's surprising how attached people are to both war and the accidental forms of their religions. Esp given that non-attachment is supposedly a teaching of many of those religions.
It's the old Zen thing of confusing the moon with the finger that points at the moon.

As to this small forum - pobably it is a waste of time. Perhaps it's better to stick just to trivia. On the other hand - over 300 views to this thread - so in a limited way I am getting my ideas across to a few - not that I suppose it really makes much difference. If it makee just one person re-evaluate things, then I think that is actually something.

Going online is 'getting out there' - it's not some computer game we're playing.

 

Maybe you are right. Either way it looks like the old entrenched religions and the negative patterns of behaviour asscociated with them will go on - probably until there is a huge disater of some kind.
Just one point - every time we have successfully solved any problem it is based on our own nterpretations of things. There is no one else to interpret or judge. We have to solve our own problems. God is not about to appear and wave a magic wand of some kind. In fact, the belief that he is, under the form of Jesus, the Mahdi or whoever is probably yet another religious doctrine which has enormous potential to cause further violence and suffering in the world.

 

Universal Soldier.


He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.

He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.

Donavan.

 

That's a shame Phil. Even if we are not 100% enlightened (and who is?) we have to live as best we can in this world.
It would be useless to transorm your consciousness into some form of blissed out state whilst millions still die in savage wars.

'I can only be perfectly happy when everyone is happy' - Herbert Spencer (??not certain)

Posting here might well seem pointless I agree. I wonder myself at times if it isn't just a waste of time. But we've developed the internet, a new form of communication, and I can't see why we can't use it to try to at least discuss these issues, even if some find it offensive to have their belief system analysed.
For my part, I too have problems - like eveyone else.
That doesn't prevent me from also having my views on things. Maybe the mistake is to assume that there are 'enlightened' people who have all the answers. I can't say I've ever encountered such a being, either in life or in reading etc.

My contention is that in most cases following one of the old religions doesn't lead to freedom or to enlightenment. Rather , it leads only to repitition of the failures of the past. More of the same old thing which has failed to solve our collective problems in the past, and has no chance at all of solving them in the future, esp so long as war etc is glorified and seen as inevitable.

 

By the term Kshatriya, it doesn't automatically mean a warrior on the battlefield. Swami Vivekananda has stated that anyone who fights against adharma or injustice is a kshatriya. Swami Chinmayananda has also stated that a Kshatriya is one who have sattvic or noble ideals and works for their realization.
With your advocation of the cause of non-violence and working for it, you too are technically a kshatriya, even if you don't accept the label of kshatriya.

It should be understood that Krishna in the Gita is urging Arjuna to execute his duties as a warrior. The emphasis here is on duty and not on going to war.
If Krishna is living in the present era, he would immediately realize the danger of a third world war, which would destroy mankind as a whole. Hence he would come to the logical conclusion that dharma or righteousness lies in preventing a third world war. And for that reason , just as he urged Arjuna to perform his dharma or duty and fight the Mahabharatha war, similarly in the present context he would have encouraged you to do your duty well, and work for the propagation of peace and non-violence.


I agree with Swgrdnbeauty that the best way to world peace is by perfecting oneself. 'World transformation through self transformation' should be the motto.The world can be right only if the individual is right.

Krishna himself echoes this when he says " You yourself are your only friend, you yourself are your only enemy."

He is clearly stating that a human being should be a friend of himself by getting rid of all the negative propensities and qualities that exist in oneself(negative qualities which makes one his own enemy).And only the man who loves himself, who is a friend to himself , and who has eradicated the negativity within himself , can love others unconditionally and be friendly to others.

Muhammad too echoes this when he says, " The greatest Jihad is the Jihad against oneself."

And the Buddha too says, " He who has conquered himself is greater than he who has conquered others."

Swami Vivekananda too says this when he says, " First let us be gods, and then let us help others to be gods. Be and make, let this be our motto."

A perfect world is an effect , and we are the means and cause . For the world can be pure and good and non-violent , only when we are pure and good and non-violent. So let us purify ourselves , let us make ourselves perfect.

 

I agree we should aim to improve ourselves, I agree too that a spiritual awakening 'is indispesible if humnity is to survive'. However, 'I can only be perfectly happy when everyone is happy' - no use being the most enlightened being ever to set foot on the earth's surface if millions are stuck in ignorance and suffering from the effects of fake religions and wars etc.
A balance is needed perhaps between work on oneself and work to try to ameliorate the disaster that is the current historical situation of humankind.
If we wait for complete and perfect enlightenment before we try to act, we may wait a very long time and meanwhile, conditions will have deteriorated even further, thus making the achievement of a spiritual awakening even more unlikely.

Please don't confound me with those who use martial imagary - 'soldiers of peace' or whatever. It is precisely that kind of metaphor which I think is dangerous. It is constructed on the basis of a cultural imprint which accepts warfare etc.

It may be a romantic concept which appeals to a certain side of the psyche, but it is ultimately just a construction which can be replaced with other more useful and sensible ones.

I am not a warrior or a soldier - I am a human being. If others choose to use images drawn from human conflict to describe my activities, I can't do much about it, other than suggest that they need a shift in their conceptual basis.
It can be described in other and more simple terms.
I am simply an ordinary person who has studied a certain amount, had certain experiences and is now stating certain concerns on that basis.

I'm not even saying I'm definitely right. I began this thread more in a spirit of exploration - it interests me to see what others think about these issues.
To an extent, I am prepared to play devil's advocate where I think it may provoke people to think for themselves.

However, as a sresult of it, my view remains that there is a definite problem here which needs to be addressed.

 

As I mentioned in my previous post , as far as we Hindus are concerned, since you are promoting sattwic ideals , you are technically speaking a Kshatriya. This is not a romantic construction, but a fact.
And as I mentioned , a Kshatriya doesn't necessarily mean a warrior in the battlefield.
There are Brahmanas , Kshatriyas , Vaishyas and Shudras in every society.

I agree with you that we have to work on oneself and at the same time work on society as well to eradicate negativity.

But at the same time it should be mentioned that Ramana Maharshi has stated that an enlightened master, without going anywhere , can create situations and changes in society and the world at will.

Even Aurobindo, whom you extoll, has mentioned in his memoirs that he had created positive situations in order to influence world war 2 , and worked with his yogic powers for the defeat of the Nazis and the fascists.

An enlightened master can disseminate positive sattwic vibrations around him , which influences people to think positive and sattwic thoughts, and hence corresponding positive and sattvic actions.

The enlightened person is more potent than a multitude of scholars and warriors.

I believe that if we can create a certain critical mass of enlightened masters throughout the world, we can radically change the world.

 

It depends how you define the universe - but must admit that I thought the guna of rajas was more the kshatria thing.

Pity they don't get on with it then. Sins of ommission are as bad as sins of commision. If they have the power to intervene, and actually, I remain to be convinced of this, and choose not to, perhaps they're not so all-knowing after all.

I don't extoll Sr Aurobindo as my guru or anythung like that. I think he was an intetesting thinker. As to his claims regarding the war etc. I just don't know. Maybe his influence had some small effect, but not that much.
Sweet Mother's claim that it was she who told Hitler to attack Russia is ludicrous.
Aurobindo's work was headed in generally the right direction, but I also think it is flawed in some ways.

But clearly they fail to penetrate far into the mass of humanity, where they might do some good.

But who is 'the enlightened person'?

Disagree - I think we've had more than enough 'masters'. It is in the general colective of ordinary people that change must come. Worshipping this or that master hasn't yet changed the world and I doubt it ever will.
Also think that prorbably, women have a higher potential than men in all this,

 

Just because you have rajas in you doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be violent. Rajas is also a charecterestic of activity and action and energy.

 

I have never extolled worshipping this or that master. I have only said that one ought to strive to be enlightened.

With respect to other questions , please read Eckhart Tolles "The Power of Now". Eckhart Tolle is a western enlightened master who attained enlightenment or perfect cessation of mind in an unorthodox manner.
Tolle has raised the same issues that you have raised, and has given a solution as well. I think it is worth a study.

And I agree with you that women have a higher potential than men in all this.

 

i actually mix my vedic wisdom with some egyptian book of the dead... one thing to consider advantageous to pharoaic understanding is the pharoah was both the chariot driver and the warrior shooting arrows while in the vedic system, there was a charioteer for the warrior as was the case of krishna for arjuna... just something to consider

 

I didn't mean that Ksatrias are limited to only one guna. The kind of passionate Bhakti practiced by some is also rajasic I'd say.
All three gunas are necessay for the cosmic manifestation to continue.

 

You underestimate the supreme being many times BBB, would you be surprised if God appeared before you right now? you would probably not even recognize him, and this I can say for a fact.

 

That's one advantage of ny view that the universe = god. It is ever present before us.In fact, we are it.
But the higher consciousnes only works through us - that's the root of my argument here. It is humans who embody the divine consciousness who have some chance to change things in this sad old world.

If we just wait, as for example the xians do, for the coming of their god on earth, I fear we will wait forever, or at least a very long time.

Bob Marley quote is applicable here:

"most people think great god will come from the sky
take away everythnig and make everybody feel high
but if you know what life is worth
you would look for yours on earth
so now you see the light
stand up for your rights.."

 

You say God is everything BBB, if that is the case, then the concept of this person who is "BBB" is basically an illusion. You don't really solve your problems, He is the one who acts like BBB to solve your problems. So really, it makes sense if we depend on God. If you take God to be some high and mighty being in the clouds or if you take God to be basically everything, it proves that when we do anything , it is because of His will.
Hence, even if it is problems pertaining to the world, It is possible that He solves the problems Himself. Although it might be through the thoughts flowing through us spontaneously, but it will be Him. So I don't think we can ever underestimate God.