post pics or stories of people who have attained perfection in yoga

Good advice. I should know - I've been through phases where I became a bit humourless - I try always to see that a lot of pain and grief can come from taking things too seriously - but of course, I don't mean we should be flippant about everything.

Thats very true Spook. And in other ways there are cultural and dare I say it, even psychological differences in some respects between oriental and occidental people. Obviously, I don't take a Kipling type view of
'East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet', or I'd hardly have invested a lot of time in looking deep into oriental philosophy.
Still, I suppose we do tend to judge things based on our own cultural models.

In my case, the general idea of romantic love of a sexual nature was put into me as a major programme for life at quite a young age by my cultural surroundings - films, tv and so on. And that's true for most people in western culture. It is also a fact of life in India , although it is flavoured differently. This can be seen clearly from the massive popularity of romantic Bollywood films .
And for me, although I am fully aware of the transitory nature of human relationships, love is an important thing - and sex has it's role. I don't accept that sex is meant to be for procreation only - I think in animals that is so, but in humans it takes on a much higher significance.
I don't believe in so called 'free love' - I'm speaking about proper relationships.

And quite honestly, I just don't see that sexual renunciation is at all necessary for any purpose of gaining spiritual knowledge. It's all a question of assigning to things the right place, and keeping things in balance.

So to me, it is quite horrible to contemplate things such as this. I don't necessarily condem the person concerned, I think they are in a way a victim of a particular cultural manifestation. But it really does smack to me of psychopathy nonetheless. And I know that's because of my own value system - which In turn I know not absolute, and others percieve things differently.
But each of us here is in the same boat. We all represent our cultural (and sub-cultural) heritage, as well as our own individual point of view which is more or less conditioned by that.

As to what I said about psychological differences - it is interesting that C.G.Jung, the Swiss psychologist said that in his view, some practices which are of benefit for eastern people can be either ineffective or even harmful to westerner's, and vica versa. He thought that the ego is constructed differently in either case because the deep cultural myths are very different.
As Spook said, people like us were subjected to much quite narrow christian stuff as youngsters when we were 'imprint vulnerable' to use the psychological term. Quite a different story from being brought up on the deeds of the Hindu gods and avatars.

I don't know if Jung was right or not, up to a point he probably was in some ways. I think that if western people are to get any benefit from eastern teachings in general, we have to somehow assimilate what we can in our own way. I don't think we can just try to change over to Indian culture.

 

Read the entire discussion. Krishna is explaining how to attain spiritual perfection. Arjuna's doubt then is what is the state of a perfect one - for his own understanding of the goal, not as a ruler to measure the spiritual growth of someone else.
And the characteristics defined can and easily are faked, as I said before. You can never be 100% certain of a person based on such an evaluation - you have no way of knowing what their innermost thoughts are, or if there are disturbances within their mind.



Chapter 2, Verse 55.
The Blessed Lord said: O Partha, when a man gives up all varieties of sense desire which arise from mental concoction, and when his mind finds satisfaction in the self alone, then he is said to be in pure transcendental consciousness.

Chapter 2, Verse 56.
One who is not disturbed in spite of the threefold miseries, who is not elated when there is happiness, and who is free from attachment, fear and anger, is called a sage of steady mind.

Chapter 2, Verse 57.
He who is without attachment, who does not rejoice when he obtains good, nor lament when he obtains evil, is firmly fixed in perfect knowledge.


Chapter 2, Verse 58.
One who is able to withdraw his senses from sense objects, as the tortoise draws its limbs within the shell, is to be understood as truly situated in knowledge. Chapter 2, Verse 59.
The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.

 

In practical terms we have to evaluate or 'judge' people. If they act in a way which seems abberated, then we can often assume some mental disturbance.
Because certain patterns of sick behaviour are sanctioned by one culture doesn't make it right. How about the Spanish sport of Bullfighting? It's part of Spanish culture going back to Roman times, but to most Europeans it's a cruel and sick spectacle. We tend then to say in a 'judgemental' way that the people who go to watch the bullfight are a bloodthirsty and cruel lot. That seems fair enough.
I don't really see much difference here, as I don't think the lifting of bricks with a broken penis is anything more than a case of insane self abuse. In my mind it is an insult to Nature and therefore to the Goddess Herself.
No sane and balanced person would go in for this. If they're not sane then I personally don't think they have much to teach us spiritually.

 

Re: Penis lifting...I'm definitely in agreement with you here, Bill, and the scripture we all revere, the Bhagavad-gita, contains a very strong proscription regarding such practices...you quoted it earlier.


Re: Characteristics of a self-realized person...Bhaskar, I've read the discussion many times. I'll still maintain that Krishna was advising Arjuna on both aspects, both personal growth and recognizing spiritual advancement in others.

After all, per BG Chapter 4, verse 2, Krishna advises Arjuna to "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

How could Arjuna, or any other seeker, begin to recognize a genuine spiritual master without having the basics of what to look for? If we are to accept the Gita as the universal and definitive scripture, intended for all, the meaning of this must encompass both viewpoints.

 

Spook, I said earlier on how we can recognize the spiritual master. These pointers are helpful, but in the end, it is faith alone that does it. And when we approach a teacher with full faith, and we grow spiritually as a result of the interaction, then we know we are with the right teacher.
Further, even seeing these qualities in someone is matter of individual perception. You see them in Prabhupada, I fail to find any trace in the same person. But he is your Guru, you have faith in himi and have grown through the rlationship, so he is your guru. As far as you are concerned enlightened master.
To me, he is obnoxious and slanted, driven by his own agenda. I have no faith in him and have not grown from the relationship.

 

Bill, in bullfighting, someone else is being harmed. Here the person is only hurting himself, IF he is even hurting himself. All we know is that he used exercises to trade certain functions for certain others that he found he neeed more for whatever reason.

The simple thing is, if it is good for you, take, if not leave it. Why not see the positives in someone rather than harping on the negatives? Surely there is nobody in the world who does not have some good quality hidden somewhere.

 

Yes, faith in your master does do it in the end, but I think we can agree that Krishna was instructing Arjuna, and by extension, anyone reading the Gita, on basic characteristics both for a teacher and to aspire to develop in oneself.

Though I used SP's Gita for reference, I wasn't attempting to slant my response toward him or his particular teachings.

Yes, if it weren't for SP, I wouldn't be here with you guys...maybe not even alive. Over 35+ years, he has made a huge difference in my life, and started me on the eternal path.

I'd say let's follow Kumar's and Jedi's advice, and not criticize each other's teachers...and I wish you'd let down your guard a bit and at least read the first volume of SP's biography.

 

This takes us back to basics - who owns the body? The body is said not to be the self, and like everything else, it belongs to the divine. So if we damage the property of the divine under the illusion that it's 'my' body, that is to act under illusion.
Nature has given us the use of these bodies, but we should accept them as they are and not sek to modify it unless it is a medical neccessity.

But I agree - bullfighting wasn't a good parallel. It's hard to think of an exact one really. The only thing is, the bullfight is very likely a leftover from the old pagan days of the Roman empire - it relates to the cult of Mithras, which at one time was a competitor with christianity but later died out - so even in the bullfight, there was once a so called 'spiritual dimension'.

I've heard the same argument I just stated used against the idea of using cannabis as a way of changing consciousness. But actually cannabis needn't be harmful - it depends on how you use it. Still, the argument that you are polluting a body which belongs to God has been used.
I'd say this is relatively far worse. And I don't suppose it leads to much of a shift of consciousness either.
The fact is that most so called sadhus of this ilk smoke the weed (or more often strong hashish) as well - and worse, they often mix it with datura, a highly dangerous substance which leads to a delirium in which there is absolutely no chance of self control.
I haven't experienced this myself, but a friend of mine who has been in India several times told me about it - he was foolish enough to share a chillum with a couple of sadhus, and ended up loosing three days.....his travelling companions had a hell of a job looking after him until he recovered - which I'm glad to say he has done, but as he says he'll never forget this, and he also says that since then he has very vivid and disturbing dreams from time to time.

Please don't try to tell me that these sadhus have special powers which allow them to use datura.. it is a neuro toxin and there is no doubt about that. It can also cause heart attacks, as the active chemical it contains is a form of atropine, as found in other deliriants which humans have used such as belladonna and henbane.

 

I can assure you that I do try on a daily basis to see the good in people. However, in general, some people go too far, and have to be held up as an example of what not to do.
I don't engage in hate of individuals, because I've seen enough to understand that the worst criminal is often just as much a victim as those they prey upon.

To use a christian cliche - it is the sin and not the sinner that is condemned.

If I were god, I'd send this chappie back to earth when he dies, and make him live a life of an ordinary family man.

 

But you are not God, so you can't change this. I think bhaskar was trying to making a good point and its the same point that spook was making too.
You cannot judge a person based on what he is doing- same applies to what you are doing now, and what bhaskar is doing, what I am doing now and what everyone in this world is doing. if we think something is not a correct way in which we "do" that something, it is better to say your pranams[humble salutations] and move on.

I think this applies to George Bush and Osama Bin Laden too.

 

The body is not self, what is self is the one divine. Nobody owns the body. Nobody owns anything - nature does not operate on terms of owning, it operates in being. And the divine which is you is your body also. And in such a state of oneness even the damage itself is an illusion.

Yes, there are wrong sadhus, nobody denies it. But to use the experience of someone to generalize and say this person is one of those, when you don't know if he may have done anything of the sort (and may even be a great vidwan of scriptures)... what kind of justice is that?

 

But in that case, so is strangling babies an illusion.

Also, if the divine is the body, to harm the body is to harm the divine.

And if the divine is the body, then what's the big deal with sexual renunciation anyway?

'by their fruits shall ye know them'.
If the best a person can do is lift bricks with their penis, I can't see much 'great' about it.

 

By that logic, I can't then say that suicide bombers are wrong, because it's only based on their actions, on what they're doing.

My view is that sometimes, yes, it's best just to move on. At other times I feel we have to take a stand against what based on our best intelligence we regard as bad or evil.

 

most of you here are either seeing the negative of what he's doing or who is to judge but there could be really something positive about what this man is able to do with bricks and his penis... what if he is a brick mason and carrying around the bricks with his penis frees up his to hands to lay brick?

 

that's much what I said earlier...if he could use the business end, unaided, to hold up a pallet of bricks, it would be impressive and yes, probably useful.

 

What is evil? For the suicide bomber, you and I are evil. If he is near Israel, everyone in israel are evil for him. For Israeli soldier, everyone from palestine is evil.

The only dharma of man is to leave this stupidity and look to the divine in all beings. In my opinion, we will not be able to become one in love unless we give up these worldly attachments and concepts.

This however does not mean you do not defend yourself in a real danger. You fight the suicide bombers if you see them, we should greatly admire those who fight to save us and protect our countries against terrorism, because they are the ones who are really in the field.

However, we also realize that such things are simply a play of maya/illusion. Everyone has Sriman Narayana with in them and if he is letting us fight, we fight... ultimately dharma wins. People on both sides are just tools, not real doers.

Therefore, if we see something strange to us, we cannot judge it, all we can do is give a hearty bow to Sriman Narayana with in, and move on. Not even an ant moves without the permission of Vasudeva with in, this also is true for the suicide bomber and the Israeli soldier.

 

OK - So if we look to the divine in all beings then we'd still conclude that certain actions are bad. Those who falsify the spiritual path, be it through self-harming or harming others are usually not those with any connection to the divine, either within or without.

If bthey had that connection, and a resultant higher level of awareness, they'd hardly be carrying on as they do.

I have to say that I don't accept the illusion argument, as anything at all can be justified on that basis, and I'm not actually convinced that this existence is an illusion. Vedantic teachers say it's an illusion - others, eg. Sri Aurobindo say it isn't an illusion.
In practical terms it doesn't actually make any difference, because people judge all the time - even here you are saying that dharma is the answer - but if everything is illusory, then so is dharma. And you are judging here that dharma is better than adharma.
And also of course, that I am in error. That is a judgement. As is my feeling that I'm right.

Also you have to be careful that you're not thinking yourself non-judgemental whilst all the time simply allowing someone else - a spiritual authority or whoever, to judge for you.
That is like saying 'we're too stupid to judge things for ourselves, so you do it for us - tell us what to think' That's exactly how those who are the masters of suicide bombers come to exercise power over those they dupe into enacting their evil will for them.

For me, and I speak for myself only, spirituality is more about freedom and empowerment. Partly, that is empowerment to be able to judge in a balanced and objective way.

 

No BBB, everyone is in connection with the divine. Even the worm that crawls in puss is in connection with the divine, - Isavasyam Idam Sarvam.

Maybe the better explanation is that they haven't had the mercy of the lord upon them yet, or in jnana yoga terms, they have not attained the dispassion for worldly attachments, which is the first step that a seeker takes to realize brahman.

It is not an illusion because it stems forth from the ultimate reality. It is an illusion because it does not seem to be what we think it is.

There is a story pertaining to this. One person sees a rope and thinks it is a snake. Another person, thinks it is a tiger's tail. The rope is real, but our thought of what it is , is an illusion.

Yes, dharma is better than adharma, because dharma takes one closer to the divine, to the actual reality. This world or samsara is often compared to an ocean. If you would like to cross the ocean by swimming to the other island, you can do that....but you could also take a ship. Dharma is like the ship, adharma is like swimming. Ship reaches the island faster, while swimming is going to take forever.

Yes, I am also wrong half of the time... probably more , but we are trying to not judge BBB, if Sriman Narayana is the ultimate doer of all things, then judging other's and one's own actions is like judging Sriman Narayana. Ofcourse, this does not mean we don't strive to follow dharma.
A true guru never judges, he simply guides one to Narayana. Ofcourse, there are so many gurus who also judge these days, I guess thats something we cannot control sometimes.

Yes, and in my opinion, i think it is also a way to realize the true nature of our being, it gives us a chance to hope that there is more than this pathetic human life that spans only about 99 years. For me personally, if I have to find any meaning in what I am doing in professional and personal life, I have to hope for something greater, something like Narayana.

 

Yep, I agree, I think thats pretty much what the Hindu saints like vashista were trying to get at.

But BBB, ascetics are the ones who gave us all this knowledge of Self, God, Universe. We get the very foundations of hinduism from these people. Even fathers of western philosophy were ascetics of sorts, we have people like parmenides who went to caves to meditate. We have Ramana Maharshi, who was an ascetic.

Bhagavad gita does not say ascetism is the wrong way to go, it simply states that it is not a path for everyone and one does not need to meditate in a closed cave to realize God. Ascetism is not for you, it is the rock in the storm of your inner passions. Whether it is the same for this man meditating is something we really cannot say.

It is quite baffling that he is lifting bricks with his penis when he can do the samething with his hands. However, if he is getting some sort of mental discipline from it, then I guess it is worth it for him. However, we just don't know whether that is true or false.

Also, I really appreciate the nice words, thank you BBB, it takes a good man to recognize good in another man.