Pescatarians, the almost veg heads?

this thread was split from a discussion of a person identifying as Veg, despite eating fish.
While I hold to the definition of a vegetarian as a person who does not eat flesh, including fish, I do applaud the efforts of people who are aware of their choices.
--dm

and stop hating on us fish eaters. you alienate us when we're aiming at similar, thought not identical goals. we have some different beliefs but we are not "bad", potentially wrong, but not bad. I hate reading EVERY freaking day on here about some 'true veggie' who's so disgraced by us fish-eaters and "ohmygod I can't believe it, they eat fish, how horrible, they are not one of us, and we should outcast them just like any omni, they are all the same". It's arrogant and insulting. Yes we should use a different title (and I do) but not all of us are as well educated about the use of such phrases. Instead of being judgemental, like geesh another "fish-eating" so called vegetarian, why not be positive and let this person in a pursuit similar to yours have some guidance and let them know why saying I'm a "fish-eating vegetarian" causes you grief and the world at large, confusion; but maturely please, without the OHMYGOD-ness of SOOOOOOOO many post on here, it makes me sick! Do you really want to alienate all of us that are close to similar goals, and throw us in the same boat as someone who eats any animal they choose? Well do that, and lose alot of support.

Sorry. I've been annoyed by this for a long time. I only hope I explained myself well enough so some veggies might understand, it's just not that cool to put so down so bad. I was once a "total" veggie, longer than I have been pesco, and for educationally acquired reasons I became a pesco. I am not ignorant or trying to make excuses. Just please stop trying to alienate me, because I believe a hell of a lot in mainstream veggie beliefs, just not all of them. And I do believe being true veggie is better than not being one, but for reasons too long that I don't feel like getting into it tonight, so I won't get into it. Thank you guys for not harming any animals. but please alittle respect here?

 

~It's not that cool to put so down so bad.

sorry wanted to correct it before someone else is like DERRFFFF!!!

 

to put us down so bad.

haha last time i write when i'm drinking wine!!!

 

I don't think most people on here hate others for what they eat, but maybe I am wrong. For me, I hate the fact that there are some people who apparently don't own a dictionary. But worse than that, when correct definitions are pointed out to them, they flat out deny them. Good communication starts with a good vocabulary. Having a common understanding associated with words allows us to express ourselves with others. When you use a word to label something or someone incorrectly you should expect to be ostracized. It makes you look like a freaking idiot.

Edit: Split post to put the correct parts into the correct threads since the original thread was split.

 

if you ever have the energy or feel like it I would be interested on you expanding on this.
thanks!

 

Just wanted to put in my two cents and agree w/ Walker - I was a pescotarian for over 3 years, eating fish sometimes (always salmon) milk occasionally on cereal or something, and cheese on at least half of my meals.

I made the switch toward veganism a month ago. (I say "toward" because I've made that conscious effort to cut out animal products - I'm doing very well and won't go back, but I expect it will be some time before I've worked all the kinks out and settled into more of a routine with it - I dislike labeling myself anyway...) Leading up to that switch, was a lot of thought, and mostly internal struggle. The few outside sources who I allowed in to "get to me" and give me information, influence my decision, etc. were the people who lead by example, who aren't overtly pushy or confrontational. The people who saw that I was ready for a change and helped by not pushing, nudging or shouting, but *pointing* me in the right direction.

Those individuals, here and everywhere, who are more confrontational about things, did nothing but turn me off from the entire idea of veganism. Because that part of the culture is not something I really want to be a part of. But in my case, since my journey began with introspection that was what it really all came back to... and those people could not do anything about the change that had already occurred within me. But I truly believe that I'm probably rare in that respect. Most people view the world (or at least their own place/part in it) from the perspective of what they imagine others see when looking at them.

The best thing you could do is befriend her, offer her information slowly and organically as it comes up, and most importantly LEAD BY EXAMPLE. I know and completely understand why it's such a big deal to some people. But being confrontational about it doesn't help anything!

 

I hope you guys don't think I am being confrontational...I am not like that at all and generally have no problems with what anyone else wants to put in their body despite not agreeing with the way it all comes about. I am by no means the "purest" person here but I just find it a place that these debates can generally be aired. I don't want to label people, thats silly, no two vegetarians or vegans are alike despite their common eating patterns. I just find it easier when people understand the various terms used and use them in sync.

In regard to the OP confrontation is a negative approach to the issue however education and honest discussion are positive forms which I think other posters have pointed out.

 

to ostracize them? I don't agree with that. It's not okay to ostracize someone just based on lack of information. If that is the case we'd all of been ostracized a million times over as children, and just because we are adults doesn't mean we should always know better. We are always learning still. And for those pesco-veggies that call themselves veggies. Well if everyone they ever knew that was somewhat familiar with what they were trying to do told them they were vegetarians, can you really blame them for just not knowing? We as knowledgable people have a duty to help those on the path with less knowledge. Not ostracize them

 

I don't know if a post on why I find fish eating to not be a big concern would be appropriate here.

but since you asked I'll make a quick summary. I hope this doesn't get deleted.

1) I believe more in the native american way of looking at life. Trees, birds, humans, lakes... we all are part of the same energy. So to say a dog, or a person for that matter, is more important than an oak tree and has more right to live or exist, is rubbish to me. We may feel more affiliation for those that are similiar, if not related, but in the end, I think everything is equal in it's place in the universe. So the difference between fish and vegetables? To me it's not one has eyes and a heart and the latter no feeling, but because I believe in a universal feeling, they have the same rights to live and to let others live from taking of them their life source. You know, the circle of life. It's the same reason I am not against hunting for food, as long as the proper respects for the animal are observed, and as much as possible is used.

2) The pollution issue is of enviromental concern to me. If we continue to pollute but we stop eating the fish, they are still screwed. So the way I see it, as long as the species of fish isn't being overfished, your not helping them. If you don't eat them, a shark or another predator will. And since I see them as not beeing of more importance than a plant in the circle of life, that argument does me no good.

3) Plus the health end of it, while I agree it sucks to be ingesting second hand mercury and I do try to live reasonably healthy it's not enough to detour me from my sushi addiction (and I'm sorry but real sushi taste better than vegetarian sushi, in my opinion). While I try to be healthy I have habits that would not be considered so. I drink alcohol fairly common, coffee occassionally, and a number of other things I'd rather not list. So to give up fish to advoid pollution but then putting alcohol in my body which is virtually a posion, is an oxymoron for me.

3) overfishing. A shame. A big fucking shame. But the solution does not lie exclusively in vegetarianism. We need tighter regulations on the industry. So that would be an economic/industrial issue for me. (I believe I am using the right word. correct me if I'm not)

so what points am I missing here. I don't know. I do believe being a true veggetarian is better for you, if you are willing to take that course. Me on the other hand while I respect mainstream vegetarianism, I do not find some of the points made as being enough to deter me off the path I'm on.

Make sense?

 

to the moderator:

I'm not sure that was appropriate here but let me give you one good reason to keep it up. There are people on here who hate on people who eat fish that still follow alot of mainstream vegetarian principals, and who may actually feel more like a vegetarian than not because of it. Maybe people will see this and understand we're not all ignorant assholes that have no respect for what it means to be a true vegetarian. We pescitarians, or pesco-vegetarians (sp?) should use a different title and I can see how that would annoy people when we don't. Educate, don't hate.

I hope that we can create an atmosphere for a more open minded commuity where we help each other strive towards our similiar goals, without putting people down who may have different ideas about a few of the concepts.

Plus there isn't a pescitarian forum.... that I know of.

 

I am not saying that we should ostracize them. I am saying that if a person does not accept the meaning of vegetarian on a vegetarian forum, then they should not be surprised if they find themselves ostracized or find conflict with others here (or else where).

 

hey thanks crystalsatreehugger (geez your screen name is hard to post!! )

It's a good read with a lot of well thought out points about what you do and why. Thanks for sharing that and as far as I can see if more people were contributing to discussions as you have there might not be some of the vitriol that sometimes enters here.

 

I can totally see your points, crystal, and appreciate them. Pretty much, word for word, that is why I lived for 3 years as a pesco. I still agree with you, in principle, about the circle of life and all things being equal. I, too, have in many ways less problem with hunting than with buying meat from the grocery.

But my problem lies with the INDUSTRY and the EXPLOITATION that takes place here. I was personally unable to draw the line (both for financial and convenience reasons) at GOOD meat, fish, dairy, etc. Even if I did buy all organic, free range everything, I'd still be contributing to the exploitation and abuse (there are virtually NO regulations on "free range/organic" farms in the US). The only ways I could see out of my moral dilemma were a) to stop using animal products in all their forms or b) to farm, fish, and hunt all of my own meat and dairy. Being that I'm a busy home-renter with a medium sized back yard, the second option isn't so much an "option" as a "dream" for me. But if I ever find myself homesteading on the Yukon, or gone back in time 250 years, or some such thing, you better believe I'll have a healthy happy milk cow, a bunch of chickens, and a fishin' stream within walking distance! As it is, though, the best I can hope for is a healthy happy life-sustaining veggie crop this summer - and the knowledge that I'm no longer supporting the culture of death we have all contributed to in one way or another in this world.

 

Sorry that you have been feeling ostracised, I'm sure that wasn't the intention of many of the people here - it is just frustrating sometimes when you go out to dinner or to a friend's house and say that you a vegetarian and then offer you fish because "the last vegetarian I met ate fish" - and sometimes people take those frustrations further than they should.

Personally I think that what you eat is your choice and you shouldn't be abused for it. However, you have to get the terms right...it's not a question of abuse, just using the right word for the right situation. (for instance if I only had sex with white men I'd be wrong to identify myself as celibate...there is nothing wrong with what I was doing, I'd just be using the wrong term and creating confusion about what was meant by celibacy).

Anyway, good on you for following the path that you know is right for you, and I hope you don't feel so ostracised in the future - remember that often it is not malice, just frustration that is leaking out (and it's not personal, it's probably frustration that stems from a run-in with someone who didn't have your insights about the pescatarian/vegetarian difference).

 

Thanks. I know it's mostly frustrastion leaking through, but the problem with message boards is you cannot hear people's intentions and sometimes you just have to rationalize from the way it's written.

I kept quiet for a long time because I thought I might be put down for becoming a pescaterian, though I am still very much in tune with the beliefs and ideas supported by vegetarianism. I come here to learn new things, share ideas, and to support others on their journey, but when it seems like almost everytime I get on here I'm reading something about those "veggie's who eat fish" and the disgraced of it, it's hard to keep on reading, and in the end supporting. It has turned me off from these forums before.

Some pescaterian's are ignorant and call themselves vegetarian because of it. Some just use the term because people understand it, so we don't have to explain our whole belief systems every time someone inquires (an excuse I know, but I hate repeating myself, and when so many people ask me in day wheather I'm vegetarian or not, sometimes it's just easier after a long and stressful day to say I am, so sorry) but many of us are conscious of our choices, care about animals and the eco-system, and have well thought out reasons for doing what we do, and use the right terms.

So next time the annoyance grips you and you feel like coming on here to bitch about it with your fellow veggies, think about what your saying, and what effect it just might have on someone.

 

maybe some people who eat only fish might read your post and realise it is a really easy thing to explain the term pescatarian and then you won't have the problem with having to explain it too often and others won't have the problem with having to explain vegetarian too often!

 

I think a lot of folks who have described themselves as vegetarian yet eat fish simply didn't know the term pescatarian. I sure didn't back when I was one. Then again, it started off by me saying I didn't red meat, then that I didn't eat red meat or poultry. I wasn't really veg and I knew it (mostly because I still made unhealthy food decisions and happened to use shrimp/fish for a protein source because I couldn't afford any others but those cheapo shrimp rings and fish on sale sometimes).

Mostly I think the situation arises with lack of knowledge. If you've never heard the word pescatarian, how can you describe yourself as that? You just know that you can't handle the taste of red meat or poultry, what else do you call yourself? If you only eat fish maybe once a month and haven't heard of hte word pescatarian, and consume no other meats, then of course you'd call yourself vegetarian - knowing no other word for it. Education is key.

 

i think the words should / shouldn't should be abolished from the english language. Why not just share a discussion on the pros and cons of eating something or doing something? You both might learn something

 

Nah, shouldn't is a fine word. The suggestion of banning words is very oppressive, in the Orwelian dystopia sense, and I don't suppourt that (being oppressive, that is, Orwel's works are great).

There is nothing necessarily wrong* with being a pescatarian, in the whole life choice sense. If you want to be one fine, if not well that's lovely too. My gripe is the spread of misinformation, and bluring of the definition of vegetarianism. No people don't always know what pescatarian means, but guess what, they aren't going to if you don't get out there and explain it. A hundred years ago I doubt the general public knew what vegetarianism was, but they do now (pretty much).

Surely the effort a pescatarian would have to put in to say 'I'm a pescatarian - that means I eat fish but not meat' is exactly the same as a vegetarian needs to explain 'no I don't eat fish, they're still creatures too'. The increase in awareness will benefit all of us.

* well I'm not going to pretend not to angry about the destruction of marine habitat due to over fishing, or be aware of what I perceive to be inconsistences of logic, just because it might offend somebody. Hell I get offended every day, but people are as entiled to say things I don't agree with as I have not to agree. Democracy in action.
Seriously though if you're going to get all rattled by some stranger on the internet and take their word as gospel then maybe you have a whole other problem.