Turning the other cheek

The Sermon on the Mount was the first Sermon Jesus ever gave. Christians did not exist at this time. And Jesus first Sermon was directed to the Jews. The Sermon was to show the Jews that the Law was to be fulfilled. Jesus was the promised New Covanant between man and God. And the purpose of the Sermon was to show the Jews that it would take something greater than the Law to save mankind from sin. Jesus told the Jews if you really think you can be saved by the Law, then this is how good you will have to be. If you lust after woman and you want the law to save you, then you will have to physically pluck out your eyes, thats the kind of actions that will be required if you want the law to save you. After many such examples, all the Jews knew no one could be that good. And as I have stated before, that was the point Jesus was trying to make. SALVATION BY WORKS, IS IMPOSSIBLE.
I'm a Christian, and there is no way I'm going to pluck out my eyes, and Jesus did not give that example to encourge us Christians to do so. He gave it to show the world, THAT SALVATION BY WORKS IS IMPOSSIBLE.

 

BANG ON!
I wish BBBlake will read that just a few more times.

Not patronising you but acknowledging that you have gone as far as getting the first half of the lesson (something too many christians dont even get).
What you did was arrive where the disciples did too - you realise this is impossible.
"Then who can be saved?" they asked.

What you are NOT 'getting' is where to go from here.
You sorta bail out of it and complain that 'it doesnt make sense' and rather than continue on with it - you dismiss it from anymore effort.

Believe me, you will just make me smile if you try and bother talking about 'levels' when it comes to Jesus teachings.
In this very example it becomes so clear Jesus not only challenges the 'level' of religion,
As the kids say He proceeds to 'total ownage' of religion.
Then after He severely owns it, he then puts it in his pocket and then introduces a level entirely higher.
Religion can answer to that level.

You got it halfway BB - but instead of giving up, keep going with it!
(patronising indeed heh)
But seriously, keep going and test Jesus on this and take it to a conclusion.

(actualy Jesus does give the disciples a partial answer.. he says "Through man this is impossible. Through God it is not" and this sets the stage for the next part of his teachings)

 

Imagine for a moment that the Bible was never written. would mankind truly be any better or worse off than we are today, I think not.

The moral code or ethical dipstick which governs the behavior of man has always been a part of our gnome.

Natural selection and evolution has chosen the path for us, allowing us as a species to survive. otherwise long before the teachings of Abraham, Buddha, and Mohammad mankind would have destroyed itself.


Hotwater

 

The Bible is the most read book... ever

Take away Jesus what is left...

 

This thread is ill thought out nonsense. BBB is not going to truly listen to any of our answers. He wants to vent about how Christianity is leaving the world in ruin. How the only tyrants in the world have been Christians. I left fact after fact about Christian nations versus other nations on another thread that he was in the thick of that was never responded to.

He doesn't want to debate. He wants to spew venom. I'm sorry the brother has to live with this much hatred in his heart. God Bless him.

 

I was just encouraged to see that he did actually 'start off' with the right line of understanding when it came to this teaching by the Great Rabbi.
He responded the same way the disciples did and I have to admit thats the same way I responded.
"Well what the.. then who can be saved then?!"

I guess this goes to the faith aspect.
For many people the shock is followed by just a bit of faith in Christ that He will explain himself.
Then Im thrilled how Jesus 'got me' to a wonderful twist.
[in this case using the impossible law to drive me to grace]

For others (like maybe BBB) the shock is followed by a sort of 'personal pride' which says "I cant understand this.. but rather than trust Jesus is going to explain it... I must assume there is something wrong with HIM. After all, I cant be wrong!"
and,
Instead of being delighted the teacher used this mechanism to back them into a truth - the critic feels 'tricked'.

BBB has a problem in both those areas. After all he claims to 'know alot' about this teaching and so he cannot accept finding out something new (after all it would mean he didnt know as much as he does)
and,
Pride wont allow him to give credit that Jesus has actually brought him half-way to the understanding.
He feels like he has to reject even that much just to 'show' he cant be moved.

I just want to encourage anyone to drop the ego and follow through.
You ARE right to be critical of the teachings and by all means DO confront them.
but,
Be sincere and at least follow through.

 

So you're basically asking what happens when you take away the magic, prophesy, and mysticism? how about reality :H



Hotwater

 

My thoughts are... Turning the other cheek is good for me on an individual basis. It is great to rise above all pettiness.

And had only Austria-Hungary adopted "Christian" values in 1914, there would have been no WWI, and thus, no Hitler, and thus, no WWII.

Christ, being Christ, must have known that the vast majority of people were not going to strictly follow every word he said. He made it very clear that he didn't even expect everyone to understand every word he said, hence the many parables. It seems to me that his teachings existed primarily for those who were wise enough to see the value in them. How can you preach to fools, after all? By their very nature they don't listen.

 

When has prophecy not been true?

 

That's your assumption - and it is not correct. It makes no difference to me at all if people believe in the bible according to their own wierd and wonderful interpretations or not.
I am stating my opinion, which isn't based on hate, but on many years of reflection and experience.
I have noticed the tendency among xtians who post here to attempt to trash anyone who diagrees - it has no effect. It is just another manifestation of the sad failure of some xtians to follow their own code.
This post follows the usual order - a savaging followed by a blessing - very much redolent of the methods employed by some of those evangelists.

 

No - we've had it spelled out now - the teachings aren't aimed at xtians but at the jews. So xtains can continue to be aggressive and beligerent and not worry, because evidently it's all ok as long as you 'believe'.

 

There is absolutely no 'shock' value in these teachings which I've been hearing trotted out since I was a young child.
It's more that as I've aquired a deeper view of life and lived through many experiences, it is clear to me that the teachings can't help, and only lead to hypocrisy, and worse, to intellectual acrobatics which are resorted to by some to try to justify their beliefs. The latest thing BBB has learned is simply a confirmation that this is so.
It turns out that the teachings of jesus weren't meant for xtians but the jews of the 1st centuty.
In my view that is nonsense pure and simple.

It's also evident that the principle 'judge not' is either an alien concept to xtians, or that this too, is not aimed at xtians.

Sincerity does not mean taking on board a belif system which one considers to be deeply flawed and dangerous for the future of mankind, but has more to do with being honest with oneself - but of course, that isn't included in the good book.

'I' want to encourage people to drop the ego? Contradiction in terms. The ego is the 'I'. You mean you want other egos to take on a xtian gloss. And to convince your own ego that you are right in your beliefs.

 

The 'I' meaning ego argument has nothing to do with his use of English. You're correcting a Christian about the proper way to express ego in Eastern terms. It's like trying to tell a Muslim not to eat from the cow because it's sacred.

 

Well I dont know how to tell you this but.. at the time of this particular passage there is only Jesus the Rabbi, with a bunch of Jews in Judea, who practice Judaism.

No 'acrobatics' needed here, its about as plain as the text can get heh.

 

OK - enough. If you can't see how ridiculous that is, then I'm sorry.


If you say it was for the jews, not for xtians who would come after, then really what was the point? And as I've already pointed out, xtians through the ages have understood that jesus words were aimed at them and sought to define xtian ethics.

As for discussion in this forum - it not possible to discuss with people who think they already have it all worked out so pat.
That being so, I'm off.

 

So your really think Jesus wants us to pluck out our eyes? And as I said, Jesus was speaking to the Jews about the requirements of the law for salvation. Or do you think Jesus just wanted the Jews back then to pluck out their eyes?

 

Dont be sorry, I definately think your misunderstanding of this is completely ridiculous.
Actually.. it would make it entirely nonsense.

No, Xtians throughout the ages have always understood that Rabbi Jesus, living under the Old Covenant Law, in Judea, talking to other Jews.... that he was not just teaching the same Laws but was taking them to the strictest and ultimate 'logical conclusions' which, in effect, 'killed' any last faint hopes of them succeeding.

You yourself keep making this point for us!

Interestingly, your entire position seem to be asserting that you 'got it down pat' and then staring blankly at any additional information being given to you.
You are not even 'wrong' about this as far as you took it.
Except,
You seem to be unaware of 'Christianity' and where it comes from, how it works and why its a 'New Contract'.

As I say, half the Christians I know are trying to mix Law and Grace themselves so Im not even picking you out.
I can honestly tell you I know a Christian leader who is actually trying to mix law with grace so desperately they are making up 'dietary myths' and I shit you not - trying to justify circumcision for gentiles no less.

So believe me, you are actually much CLOSER to getting this down pat than some of our own people!
You just need to find out about Jesus deliberately setting the bar to impossible heights,
then fulfilling them,
Then dying and upon that making a 'new contract' come into effect.

Now how do we achieve these 'ridiculous standards'?
We do this 'through Christ'.
Now it gets into 'spiritual practicalities' because its not what 'we do' but what HE does in us and through us and on 'our behalf'.

I hope that helps.

 

The last Christian died on the cross.

You guys don't seem to be bringing God into your debate very much. Now I don't want to take the time to look it up, but somewhere in there, someone asks Jesus what is needed to please God. And Jesus says something to this effect:

1) You must love God with all your heart, strength, mind and soul.
2) You must love your neighbor as yourself.

I'm sure one of you can look this up and quote it verbatim for us.

And Ecclesiastes says much the same thing:
Worship God and keep his commandments. That is the whole duty of man.

 

Yes indeed. You got it.
This is exactly where it goes.
And I like the way you put it but let me ammend that to:
"The first and last Christian died on the cross"

You got it bang-on.
John, Paul and company take up that exact same teaching and repeatedly hammer it home over and over, boxing the reader in from all angles.
There is only one Christ.
You will fail and fail and fail to pass the very first commandment over and over.
Only one man pleased God - Jesus.
Only one man succeeded - Jesus.
You are NOT going to make it.
You cannot make it.
So where do you go, where do you go?
You can go nowhere, you cannot hide, you cannot get out of it, there is nothing left anymore,
except.
The first and last Christian.

 

Try again.

I am human, am I inherently condemned? Are you saying that humanity (yours, mine, everyone's) is damned simply for being human? Do you truly believe that? Why? Who told you to believe that?

As insightful as your idea seems to be, I have to tell you it is subtly but absolutely wrong, not to mention profoundly saddening.

Despite my own blind spots and residual naivete, I am well aware of the unignorable fact that human behavior sometimes conforms to gross distortions of reality. But it is a fundamental mistake to take the life of Christ and use it to suggest a condemnation of humanity. It is not God's idea that man is unworthy of the divine. I would suggest that the idea itself requires far more rigorous skepticism than the view of humanity it proposes. Where does that idea come from? Do you truly believe it? Why? Who told you to believe it?

If you are going to be truthful in your faith, maybe you should defer to Christ's words when they disagree with those of his followers. Reread the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:3-13). Meditate on them until you find some renewed harmony with their deepest meaning. Christ loved humanity, regardless of all he suffered. So, obviously, humanity is lovable.

You are one expression of humanity, so you, of all people, should respect humanity's worthiness of the divine. It may be the meaning of your life.

Try again.



Peace and Love