Where mysticism fails

The world is going to fall to pieces one way or the other; no? I do know what you're saying, though. But it reminds me of the story where Kabir tells a disciple to go into the woods and cut wood. After many hours they go searching for him, only to find him swaying in tune with the trees. It seemed that he "blissed out" and became like a tree, and with it he forgot the rest of the world. He was thankful that his friends came searching for him for he knew that he would die if he didn't get anything to eat.

But really, doesn't everyone want to bliss out? Isn't that the temptation of drugs? Reminds me of the sixties: "Turn on, tune out."

As for me, I like to know what's coming up (if at all possible) and to have a choice of whether or not to follow a certain line of action. So if a dream warns me of a situation I can do everything in my power not to let it come true. I say dreams because if I said symbols which are seen in the real world you'd probably think I am superstitious. Funny thing about superstitions - they are only valid for the person who initially experiences it, to him it has meaning.

 

The world will one day be destroyed by the sun's expansion, and long before that, all life will have been extinguished. No doubt about that.
However, we're looking here at an immense span of time. It is feasible that humans will be around for millions of years to come.

In my view, we make our own world here - our own civilizations and societies. When I said what I said about things falling apart, I meant more in terms of the immediate situation faced by mankind - environmental meltdown, social disintegration, the threat of fundamentalism etc etc.
I think it's not very helpful if people just space out in some kind of blissed out state in so far as such a state means retirement from the world, turning away from life and it's activities - the traditional ascetic type approach of many mystics. There's a kind of anti-life thing that is often a part of such a world view.

I think the drug thing brings in definite new horizons. With things like LSD, and MDMA it is possible to visit the areas visited by mystics without the necessity of such a withdrawal and protracted years of meditation and discipline etc.
The hippy thing of the 60's - 70's was about getting into farout spaces and so on, getting blissed out - but also about changing society and the world for the better.

I recall reading some years ago from one of the proto hippy west coast music promoters back in the 60's refering to the LSD experience 'when you see the management, you go to work for the management'. Expresses it very well.
And in my mind, 'working for the management' in this context means actively promoting the power of good in general, trying to create a positive vibe in the wider world, not just spacing out in some mountain retreat, ashram or monastary.

I have no doubt at all that we can learn from dreams, and from symbols in the world - and from many other subtle things and forces. I'm all for an opening of consciousness to the reality of such things.I don't regard them as mere superstition - although that does unfortunately exist.
I just think in the end that a balance in needed between contemplation and action. In a way, I'd prefer to see it in terms of magic rather than mysticism.

 

"Tune in, turn on, drop out" -- Timothy Leary

 

In happiness or sadness I walk my path. Only because it compels me, like breathing.

 

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I disagree - at least in my case.

The reason why I do this is for knowledge, not happiness. Happiness is more of a subjective thing that you either you are experiencing at one point but not in others.

Knowledge is really what all this is about. Why do people do initiations, talk to spirits, do high magic, and so on? To gain knowledge. This is what many of the old books talk about.

Happiness you can always get without religion, but knowledge - at least the kind of hightened awareness is a bit different. You CAN do this without religion, but it's harder for most people. Happiness can be gained with no philosophy whatsoever.

 

For anyone with empathy, letting go of the attachment to the condition and fate of humanity, life on Earth and the Earth itself, is necessary for being contented or blissful within. Given the way things are, attachment will cause perpetual pain and sorrow, as many here have felt, including me.

To let go of this attachment enables the individual to act in the world without adding to it negatively, through anger at the injustice and so on. Finally, mysticism is about union. In such union, there can be no escapism. If there is escapism, then it cannot be union. In union, there is always service of all life as an expression of compassion to the eternal and universal life that is oneself.

Peace and love
Jnanic

 

I'm sure there's a contradiction in there.
If one were totally unattached to the world and to events in the world, one would presumably see everything as pretty well equal. In such a condition, how could you determine what is wrong with things, or who or what to serve?

 

Bill

One does not see all things as automatically equal if one is unattached. One does not become blind with non attachment or see everything as undifferentiated. One sees equal value in all life but that does not mean one can help or serve all life, as the individual does not become omnipotent or omnipresent through union nor does everyone want to receive the help offered.

The perception of reality is actually clarified from non attachment. There is the perception of need - the relative importance and urgency of things becomes more clear as the basis for action, what the individual can do and what they cannot do, free from guilt or selfishness.

Union allows action of that which is most appropriate, which will be unique for each person's situation. The direction comes from the realisation of the infinite will in the mind of the individual, which he or she is one with, free from the illusion of separation.

Peace and love
Jnanic

 

hm. Mysticism only fails if you expect something out of it.

 

Does this mean you shouldn't expect results? If I didn't get results I wouldn't do any of this stuff.

 

Mysticism is an ultimately undefinable experience. Any specific expectation of what it should be will probably distract you from experiencing what it is. Until one's expectations are transcended, any full realization of the mystic experience is unlikely.

There is always a good analogy to be found in music. One who thinks dance is the sole purpose for music may miss the genius of Beethoven, Stravinsky, Coltrane or Jimi Hendrix. One who expects a heavily percussive rhythm and a blistering guitar solo will ignore the transcendant brilliance of Gregorian Chants, Tuva Throat Singers, Vaughan Williams, most Japanese Classical Music, Dead Can Dance, Cat Stevens, Bob Marley, etc. Inversely, one who expects music to express only the etherial transcendence of their spiritual sensibilities will probably never appreciate Black Sabbath, King Crimson, The Clash, Living Colour or Nirvana.

Think of the best things you have experienced, or expect to experience. Things like love, nature, sex, holidays, inspiration, creativity, great art, the philosophical "aha!" moment, and so on. Like the mystic experience, the first time you experience these things is usually far more than anything you expected.

Peace and Love

 

I still disagree. I DO have expectations, and I think we all do. We do very few things with no expectations. At the very least you at least expect there to be some result. If you literally expect nothing, then why are you doing it? Sure you could say you do rituals (or whatever you want to call them) for the aesthetic value, but I suspect most of us do it for more than that.

I am not saying I go in front of Venus and give her a menu of what I want out of her, but I still expect that my efforts aren't in vain!

 

because I like *doing* it. the doing is all.

 

Perhaps I appear argumentative, but I still disagree with this.

First of all it is entirely in your rights to do whatever you want, and I can't entirely disagree with someone who wants to do something "just because you want to". So from one perpective that's cool since ONE of the reasons why we do anything is because you want to.

However I two issues.

First "doing" is not all. Magic, ritual, or whatever label you give it, is not simply an act - at least not any more of an act than for example sex. Sure you can just screw anyone you want because sex is fun. But, is it meaningful? At least in my case I would rather have sex with someone I love than a one-night stand.

Ritual is the same. Sure it looks purty and it can be fun or even uplifting. However, there is a reason why magic in the old grimoires was called interchangeably an art or a science. Now science comes from the Latin "sciencia" which means "knowledge". The goal of the high art of magic is for knowledge. Other kinds of magic - especially magic with no purpose is considered meaningless traditionally. In fact it was so meaningless that it was never discussed. One thing that is missing in most newer books, but was in the old books, is that in order to do magic one must also be a philosopher. It is only through philosophy that one can have the maturity to understand the true meaning of what it is they are doing. A ritual isn't simply pretty colors, candles, and incense. In the old days, one didn't use myrrh for a moon ritual because myrrh is not a Moon subtance. This is a very subtle art.

We are all humans and there are times we do things without thinking. There are other times when I really feel like I need to do a Venus ritual. Even then I don't "just do it". I first determine the correct time to do it. When you are dealing with gods, you should first try to understand how to move with the energies involved as opposed to giving in to caprice. Every ritual has its time and place.

Honestly I can't understand why someone would do a ritual for no reason or not expecting any results. I sure as hell do. If I didn't get results I woudn't do it. For as much trouble as rituals are - the long hours of preparation, the expense, and the physical drain, I certainly hope SOMETHING comes out of it.

 

I don't really understand the whole image of mysticism as some sort of ultimate spirituality... I mean, if anything, it's a lonely, frustrating and confusing way to go about finding God.

I'm not knocking it for people who are into it, but it seems to me that when you tell yourself you're looking for something 'out there', you're really trying to develop an appreciation for what's already around you. I guess travelling around like I have been for the past little while has been exciting, and it has changed me... but ultimately, it just produces deeper and deeper yearning.

And I really don't think Jesus was in any way a mystic. He wasn't looking for answers, he was trying to figure out how to communicate them. He already HAD faith.

 

Mysticism is not about union at all! It's about searching... endlessly searching. It's about doing things and then realizing they're not it, and then maybe one day finding out what it's all about... or maybe not.

Mysticism implies inner turmoil more than it implies inner peace. If there was no turmoil, then why would someone be looking?