I have a question for you folks. Would you sleep with someone who was androgynous? (I'm not talking about "really ugly girls" or "really feminine men." I'm also not talking about sexless people.) I am going to use an example directed at men ... imagine if you met one of those people you had to look at twice to determine gender. (If you're on a college campus, I'm sure you know what kind of people I'm talking about.) This was a very striking, attractive person, but neither overtly male nor overtly female in features, mannerisms, or clothing. (Say, a regular sweater and blue jeans, or patchwork pants ) However, this person was in fact a girl -- not a very masculine girl, but not a very feminine one either. Then imagine if you struck up a friendship with this person and really hit it off; you progress to the point of a potential consentual sexual relationship. THEN imagine if this person told you she had a vagina ... but little or no breasts, and no uterus. What would you do? Would the deal be off? What if this androgyny was the result of voluntary surgical procedures, rather than just an "accident of nature"? If this person was still attracted to you and vice versa, would you go ahead, or would it be a deal breaker? (I will explain after a few people reply ... or if this is too hideously confusing for anyone to comprehend. )
For me, sex is about the person...not about the physical makeup of them. So yes if I wanted them, I'd still go ahead. If they didn't really have breasts anyway I think I'd be able to tell that without them telling me! As for no uterus....why would that even be a factor? :/
I am not Androgynous, however, as much as I'd love to be, I am not very feminine, but (I am very grateful for this, as a woman) I'm not very masculine either. This is due to chronic Poly-cystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS), and screwy genetics. I, for a female, produce many more male hormones, than female ones, have ineffectual ovaries, and yet am on the outside am totally female. Visually, I have been told by lots of people, usually by way of insult at a swimming baths years ago, that I have 'man legs', and indeed my legs are very masculine looking...but I suppose the excess body hair adds to that argument. Thanks PCOS! hahahaha! I have never been asked for any romantic involvement, and any dates have ended up as friends, and never get any further, not even to a kiss. A lot of people question my sexuality - I'm straight - and even if I am giving off the best friend vibe, I have never been offered any relationship, beyond a normal friendship at all. After reading this thread, and talking to my male friends, they said, I'm a nice enough girl, or lovely girl, who makes them feel relaxed and that they can have a laugh with me, and that I have all the qualities one might wish for ( until this point I felt good), the opinions and compliments stopped when I asked about looks. The general consensus was that I am not what people see as a typical woman, in shape and stature, and looks, and that it seems, can be hard to get their head around. Marvellous! How good do I feel right now!?!, even if it was very interesting to hear. My breasts are not very big (AA/BB cup) for my 48inch bust, and 52 inch waist, and I am literally ball shaped with limbs attached. My gait (my walk) is light, but again, neither male or female in demeanor, and my hands are square and neither female nor male looking. My parents, it seems, were prime examples of 'just because you can breed, doesn't mean you should!'. hahahahaaa! So, as British men in my area(London) are particularly superficial, maybe this, coupled with a best friend vibe I'm giving off, is going to leave me single for the rest of my life. Still, not to worry. I'm lucky I have very good friends around me. Interesting thread, Suncatch22. Thanks for posting.
Thanks for sharing your experiences Jinny. It's very personal to share yourself like that, especially as it sounds like a lot of the experiences you've had aren't nice ones at all. If you don't mind...I am wondering. Is it that YOU are happy with the way you look and identify with your body, but potential partners haven't reacted so well...or is it that you also wish you were more feminine because you feel that would be more "you"? If the second, do you "try" [I'm NOT saying you SHOULD, I'm asking if you DO] to make yourself look more "traditionally" feminine in the clothes you wear, way you behave, shaving / waxing your legs, possibly considering breast enlargements...etc...etc? Part of the reason I ask is because I very much identify with my body. To me it's an expression of who I am...so if I feel a certain way but don't look it, I go all out to try and bring that inner part of me to the physical. I can't not have my body match my mood, spirituality, thoughts...self. I am wondering if you feel similar at all? Thanks
I really don't have any issue myself with my body or my size. I am a UK size 30/32 and weigh 17stones...14lbs to a stone for all you USA folks. I would lie if I say I wouldn't like a slimmer, and more feminine figure, but it's not an issue with me, and I'm now sensible with life, so the weight will go when it goes, and my inbetweeny shape will become even more unique, so why stress about it. I have happily accepted that this is how I am put together, and I'm OK with it all. I am not at all into cosmetic surgery - I am very much of the opinion that if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it - I came in this package and so what if it's considered a little faulty - it isn't faulty where I'm concerned. I'm still me, and for the most part, fairly happy in life, so I would never have any superficial treatments....that, and I swear I'm allergic to pain, and surgery would be very very unnecessary pain! Hahahahahaa! In any case, the surgery wouldn't change my bone structure. A new nose, or liposuction, or breast enhancement wouldn't make a difference to who I am movement wise, basic shape wise, or vibe giving wise. As for the shaving, I did it once, on my legs, and it came back thicker and darker. I have a strain of PCOS that means all body hair of mine will do that, and have been medically advised to leave well alone. It was only because kids at school beat me up for it, that I tried the shaving thing. Not because I felt bad about my image. I do lately wish I was a little less hairy, purely because people used to give me hassle over it, and I have had a few comments from prospective partners - who have become friends - hinting that they would want me to shave for them. At that point, right then and there, I definitely decided I wouldn't even go to a relationship level with them, and they'd probably been reading too much Playboy magazine, because my hair is part of who I am. It's natural, and makes my skin even softer and more sensitive, and I'm cool with it so that's all that matters. Why people get so worried and worked up about something so perfectly natural still confuddles me. I do really believe that this has affected my chances in getting a relationship though, but I'm happy, so they can like it too or walk away. I ain't shaving for no-one! I am as natural as the monkeys in the jungles, my mother used to tell me! Awww, bless her! Hahahahahaaa! I do occasionally wear make-up, but really, for me, life is too short to spend drawing lines around my eyes, coating my lashes in black goop, and my eyelids in coloured powders, or covering my skin with tinted creams and powders, and additives, just because society says that this is what women should do. I still get questioned on my sexuality, even with my waist length brunette hair in a ponytail. I am happy in my own skin. I do get spots occasionally, but isn't a spot the way of the body attempting to rid itself of toxin? Why block that process with a concealer? And, I must say that out of everyone I know, my spots, left alone usually pass in less than a day, while my friends struggle to keep them at bay, or treat them, and cover them up. Don't know if I'm lucky or if it's my rarely use make-up lifestyle. There isn't really an option to determine a sex by dressing, for my size as such. In the UK there is only one high street store for women my size. For men it's even harder. The clothes in that ladies store are really not all that. they are cut short in length and in ridiculous fashions, designed for the nymphs, and scaled up, that show your excess tires and muffin tops, that most women want to hide. And at any rate, my inbetweeny, beach-ball on legs figure, just doesn't do dresses and skirts. So, I dress in my own way, admittedly in a more feminine way - trouser suits, blouses, bright T-shirts, necklace, etc, to suit my job, or mood, and I'm cool with it. Though because of the outright rejection of body hair by modern society (and a sun sensitivity condition) I am completely covered up in all weather and temperatures. I don't know what it is with young guys in London. They don't really consider the girl inside. They want a trophy girl, or a bad girl, so me, (with my now commented on) inbetweeny looks, I'm really not at all surprised really about my singular status. If someone gave me a pill and said it would 100% guaranteed turn me, surgery free of course, pain-free and completely naturally, into a woman of a proper female shape, proportions, and stature, then I probably would try it out for a while, if only to see how men re-act to me. But this doesn't mean that I'm unhappy with myself....just that I'm a 31 year female, with a whole lotta life, and needs, to catch up on! hahahahaaa!
I posted this because I am kind of androgynous myself. Toenail, I know what you mean. I'm biologically female, but have never really identified myself as such. On the other hand, I have never identified myself as a man either. I'm not "asexual" because I DO have a sex drive, and am attracted to men, as well as some women. For a time I wondered if I might be a lesbian, or at least bisexual, but I'm not sure, because the idea of sex with a woman does not turn me on. (I don't have any hangups or think it's "wrong" -- it just doesn't fire up my engines.) Recently, several experiences prompted me to realize that I do not "belong" as a woman. Ergo, I'm looking into having an endometrial ablation (to remove the lining of my uterus) or some other kind of procedure, and a breast reduction as well. I will continue to wear my "female" clothing (typical outfit: boot-cut blue jeans, a sweater with the thumb holes cut out, and a hooded sweatshirt with cap), but actually desire a relatively androgynous body (as described in my example above). This is a serious decision, not just a whim or a "statement." I have thought about it for a good long time and truly feel I will be happier with myself physically as well as spiritually. But I sometimes worry about what will happen to me socially: on one hand, I feel it would weed out the creeps who just want to fuck a girl, any girl ... anyone who would want to be with me after such a procedure, would definitely want ME and not just my body! On the other hand, I was wondering how many people out there were deep enough to actually accept a person like me, body and all. PS: In response to your first post, Toenail, since I was writing about myself I forgot to mention that the theoretical person wore a hooded sweatshirt to conceal her figure
This is a fascinating question, Suncatch22. I appreciate the depth and intelligence in your post (yes, I do get bored with posts about penis size, do you swallow, and the like). Plus it's just an interesting question. I guess my first reaction if you were sitting in front of me would be to say that I find sexuality fascinating, and people and their psychology fascinating, so this person and I would probably fast become friends. Not in a sense in which i was "studying" them, either, or not in a distant way. I give just as much as i get, and I am a thoughtful, sensitive person to have as a friend. My friends tell me they don't know what they would do with out me. Well, some do... guy friends wouldn't say that, but that's another story. So, I know we would hit it off. But you asked about sex and attraction. Um... well, I find curves and femininity very sexy. They are things I am attracted to, along with kindness and a kind of generosity in the spirit. But physically, I'd be more attracted to a curvy, feminine looking woman than a more androgynous one. That said, I would be quite attracted to an androgynous person just in the sense that she is different and interesting to me. Probably a kindred spirit, and someone I could relate to. I had a relationship once with a girl who was sort of like this. When I met her she had her head shaved, had A cup breasts (still does I assume), and dressed in jeans and a t shirt. When we later hooked up she had long hair and hips, and so looked more like a woman... and she was more beautiful to me every day. That relationship was sexual, and we were definitely in love. I think if I met the woman you describe, we would end up talking and laughing late into the night and the topic would turn to sex of course, since it's such a fascinating topic and such a pervasive human one, and if it started to become intimate I would be totally fine with that. Does that begin to answer your question? Partly? Your question about, what if it was voluntary via surgery makes me see it from a whole other, fascinating angle, though. If it was voluntary, you said! Surgery! Wow. Well, again, I would just be extremely intrigued as to why she did that. Sex though, intimacy, it might be partly out of curiosity on my part at that point. I hope that doesn't sound monsterous. I would be totally kind and it wouldn't be detached or something... but I think it would partly be out of my interest in the whole situation. I have never had sex in a context like that. I mean, what about the whole "tranny" thing? Which is quite different... in that it is a person trying very hard to look feminine. But I also wonder if I would sleep with a person like that. But with the (girl) you describe, in terms of attraction and intimacy... i really have not done anything like it except the situation i describe above. There is one other interesting part of that story I haven't included because it's too specific a detail (and she didn't ask me to start posting stuff on the internet about us), but if you PM'd me I would tell that, too. If this is about you, I get the feeling you are fundamentally kind and interesting, so don't worry! I'm sure you'll find lots of people who are interested in you. Anyway, great question. I hope I addressed it, however remotely. Imagine11
About half the relationships I've had have been with girls who were quite androgynous. Even the other were rarely super feminine. Purely physically, I'm attracted to straighter figures and small breasts (friends used to say I was gay, but I'm really not attracted to guys - it's definitely girls closer to the middle of the gender spectrum, looks-wise). That's purely physically though. If I'm attracted to someone on an emotional level, they're beautiful to me regardless of their physical attributes. I have an amazing spiritual bond with someone at the moment who would be completely unattractive to me based on my track record, and yet who I find more beautiful than anyone I've ever known. I feel my heart literally reach out when I'm with this girl - but if I'd never met her and only heard her described I wouldn't have been interested for a second. I don't know about being part of a minority of guys who feel this way (actually rate personality and compatibility above a physical ideal) - but we definitely do exist! Edit: Just realized I didn't answer the question! That would be a 'yes', then.
Suncatch22 posted : "I posted this because I am kind of androgynous myself. Toenail, I know what you mean. I'm biologically female, but have never really identified myself as such. On the other hand, I have never identified myself as a man either. I'm not "asexual" because I DO have a sex drive, and am attracted to men, as well as some women. For a time I wondered if I might be a lesbian, or at least bisexual, but I'm not sure, because the idea of sex with a woman does not turn me on. (I don't have any hangups or think it's "wrong" -- it just doesn't fire up my engines.) Recently, several experiences prompted me to realize that I do not "belong" as a woman. Ergo, I'm looking into having an endometrial ablation (to remove the lining of my uterus) or some other kind of procedure, and a breast reduction as well. I will continue to wear my "female" clothing (typical outfit: boot-cut blue jeans, a sweater with the thumb holes cut out, and a hooded sweatshirt with cap), but actually desire a relatively androgynous body (as described in my example above)." _______________________________________________________________ Suncatch22 - Your response to the reason for my thread made me consider the following points - you don't have to answer them, unless you wish to, I'm just thinking out loud here. The answers are nobody's business but your own. Also, I do have to say that I hope you are not offended or upset by my way of thinking. I'm just saying it as I see it, ok. You say you have thought long and hard - I'm sure you have, because it's a radical thing to arrive at surgery as an answer - but what was the thought pattern that got you to that point? Firstly. the argument AGAINST surgery: Cost? Pain? Maintenance? (Breast reduction usually needs re-operating later on) What can go wrong? Once you start, will you be able to stop? Removing the lining of your Uterus is a very radical step and can in some cases cause life-long problems. You are just 19 years old. To have the equivelent of a hysterectony is a HUGE step to take, to decide for the rest of your life. When, at 15, I was told I was sterile, while still bleeding every so often, I was shocked. It knocked me for six. I rescue unwanted animals, and always thought, that there are so many kids out there that need a good steady home too, so IF I ever wanted to be a people mummy, I'd adopt kids too! So, while I never wanted kids of my own, the idea that woman are 'meant' to re-populate the world, and I can't, therefore does it make me less of a woman?, plagued me. Thankfully I had a lot of support and therapy and soon realised that hey!...there are upsides to it all too. Especially with my rescue and adopt mind, for humans and animals! **** Do your research, and join surgery forums, and talk to people, and read a lot about the procedures. **** Arguments FOR surgery: You must have your own reasons - not my place to question them. Surgery can improve confidence, but you have to question, why where you not confident in the first place and how will surgery change that opinion? Some surgery can improve outlook, and therefore your life, how would it effect you? You say "several experiences prompted you to realize that you do not belong as a woman"...is this due to bad experiences with men?, or that you didn't enjoy any intimacy?, or that you haven't had what you feel is a proper relationship ? Have you received criticism for your looks ? You also said your usual dress code is "Boot-cut blue jeans, a sweater with the thumb holes cut out, and a hooded sweatshirt with cap" so essentially your usual clothes say you are trying to hide from the world. You feel that the world doesn't accept you, for who you are? And you don't trust the people around you. The thumb holes in a jumper suggest that you are trying to hide your inner self from all those who you actually aren't ready to let know you properly, and perhaps you feel they wouldn't understand you anyway. The hoodie says you have esteem issues that you are trying to work through, and are fighting to find answers for, and understand. You don't come across as a a loud, stand-out, shout-out, type person, unless something really fires you up. And you are a very deep thinker, right ? The photo's you have posted in your gallery also say, that you're a little confused and worried about what other's think of you. Take a look. See how hidden you are? The full pic in your signature (I'm assuming that is you), shows you are hiding your face, and hunched over, or the other picture had only half your face in it, which was tilted - you have a very different view on life, which you feel other's don't see or understand completely? Though I also think that this is partly due to internet viewers, and you not solely wanting the world to identify you on here...don't worry, we all do it! On a social level, that is hard to say ? What are you like now ? How will the surgery change your perception ? Personally, I find it harder to get a relationship, looking as I do, but that could be also due to my best friend vibe, and the general superficiality of British men in my peer group. I did adopt a girlie look for a while, but it wasn't me, and while I got more attention, I couldn't deal with being something I wasn't. I am simply not the really girlie type of woman. I am my own unique brand of female! Homework!: I would say, that before you have any radical surgery, please (and I am begging here!) speak to a therapist - for more than one session, as it may take a while to find someone who you can talk to and trust. I just get the feeling that (admittedly I have them too) you have some un-resolved issues, that lie deeper at the root of your concerns. More Homework!: Another thing you can try is to consider how you would dress after surgery. If it is the same, then why have surgery ? You can get strapping to reduce the size of your breasts, like a corset of sorts, from a theatrical costumiers, so you can see what a reduction look likes. It may not be incredibly comfortable, but at least you can take it off at the end of the day, whereas with surgery, only more surgery will alter. Buy the clothes you would wear and try out the look. Would you change your hair ? Change it and see the reaction. How do you think you will act, after the pain has gone ? Act that way. On the flip side, try being very girlie (ok, don't cringe!). Wear a dress, or skirt if it suits you. Get a wig in the same colour as your current hair, if you think hair makes a girl girlie. Use make-up to change the shape of your eyebrows if you don't want to pluck, if you see that as an issue. Basically, shed the current look and experiment. If you can uncover yourself a bit, and you don't have anything like hairy arms, or any deformities you feel society will look with horror at (get therapy to help you accept this), or have anything like O.C.D. where you also may need to cover up to remain in your 'comfort' zone (though pushing the boundaries of that would be good for you too, if you have that condition), then do it. Experiment! See how society reacts to you when you dress one way or the other. Try going back to the same places to get the similar people's reactions, for a proper opinion. Surgery is a very costly (mentally/emotionally, physically, and financially) so spend a little of the resources in each of those areas, i.e. clothes, hair, make-up, whatever, to find out if it's what you really want before you make it permanent. To me, from your pictures, I'd immediately know that you were female. You have a pretty face, which is symmetrical and open, but you have an almost sad look in your eyes. You have a wonderful figure, that many girls would kill for...except that it is hidden somewhat by the layers of clothes you are hiding in, and your stature. My opinion means nothing. Nor does anyone else's from this forum. The stuff I have posted is basic pop-psychology, and thoughts that randomly appeared in my mind as I read and re-read your posts! Am I trying to put you off surgery ? YES! Why ? Because your problem isn't apparently physical. It comes across as mental, and the way you think and see yourself in relation to the world. You have never mentioned any blood-work or medical opinions. As to whether you really have an imbalance of genetics and hormones, or indeed vitamins and minerals, that would cause you physical problems of Androgyny is debatable. You could speak to a doctor, and ask for blood-work and a genetical mapping, to see if you have more male than female hormones and chromosomes, first too. If you come back as normal, then it is even more important that you do speak to a qualified person, who will help you make all the right choices for you. That way, whether you end up having procedures or not, it will be a decision you will be entirely happy with. Sorry for the very long postings, but I am just trying to get you thinking even more deeply, about the bigger picture. About the total impact on the rest of your possible 85years+ on this earth, of any completely unnecessary 'permanent' procedures, you might enter into. Life's journey carries too many regrets as it is.
I know ... I have a whole long explanation but don't want to detract from the post. I will send you a p.m., though, if it's all right.
But seriously though, I agree with Jinny. Suncatcher is a lovely young woman, and she will come to understand this. When you grow up a freak, some of your freakishness, you discover later, is just a defense against people acting like idiots. Some of it is a kind of romanticized alienation. Some of it is the real you, and don't get me wrong, I love, cherish and celebrate freaks everywhere. Suncatcher will discover she is beautiful and sexy, she will grow into that, and then if she wants to have an operation... fine... but she may discover that it isn't necessary. She already has everything she needs. Imagine11
Well ... thanks, Imagine, I would like to hope that this is true. I guess I just figure that I am tired of being judged by my outsides, so I wouldn't miss my breasts ... and I wouldn't miss my uterus because I don't want to have babies anyway. (Some of this surgical thing is a health issue, by the way ... not just "a whim.") I really didn't mean for this thread to become about me ... it relates to me, sure, but outside of that I am genuinely curious about what other people think about "freaks." How many people DO judge others by their outsides (or insides, as it may be)? I would like to know.
I've received a lot of messages in regard to this post, so I'm going to try to clear it up. 1.) I never really meant for this post to be about me. I am wondering in general, albeit to become aware of what might be awaiting me ... I posted it as a moral type of deal, and to gain more insight into the way people think. 2.) I am not a transsexual. I do not want to change genders. I am biologically female, but I don't identify with either males or other females. 3.) I am not asexual. I have "normal" sexuality (meaning I can have enjoyable sex, and find people of both genders to be attractive). 4.) I DO have health problems that would necessitate surgery upon my uterus, and that would not bother me because I feel no attachment to it whatsoever. I also wouldn't miss my breasts because frankly I don't like them. (They get in the way of good hugs, for one. ) 5.) Yes, I know I'm not very masculine. I'm also not very feminine. I'm actually pretty much in the middle, a mix of masculine and feminine personality and appearance. 6.) I am not suicidal. I am not going to mutilate my body as a temper tantrum or on a whim. I just want to be healthy, physically and emotionally. I'm sorry if I offended anyone ... please don't offend me.
I actually kind of prefer androgynous people. If someone is overly masculine or feminine in any way, it is definetely a turn off for me. I have a thing for transvestites,though I must admit. I am internally androgynous, for the most part. I am biologically female and I have a female figure, but I don't think my face looks prominantly male nor female. -shrugs- It looks more like a...mouse lemur or something.
Hey, mouse lemurs are very cool. I am also more drawn to people in the middle -- sensitive men and strong women. Overly girly girls and outwardly "jock-y" men actually repulse me physically ... some of them are very nice and I can get along with them, but they literally have an adverse physical first reaction upon me. I'm just wondering what people would think about someone who might look "more female" or "more male" on the outside ... but end up being neither (in their own estimation).
Yeah, I love sensitive men & strong women! If someone looked outwardly female or male and was internally androgynous, I would also have no problem with it. To me, love is love. If I fall for someone it's because of who they are,not what gender they are...internally or externally. Which is why I consider myself to be pansexual rather than bisexual...which is an option that hipforums should include under 'profile options' in my opinion.
Sensitive men and strong woman are beautiful. Looking at societies extremes, too masculine and too feminine, I prefere to stick to the middle, that way in a relationship, one can share male and female roles. As a result of that, the focus of the relationship is the love keeping it together rather on the question of who is the boy and who is the girl in the house. Very well stated AutumnsMoonChild
Thank you. I also agree with you on the middle making way for a relationship without male and female roles. It reminds me of people saying that all same sex couples have a 'male' and a 'female' role in the relationship.
