Hearing about a lively debate concering wearing a full face veil or Niquab in public; I like to hear from some Hip Forums Members on this topic. On this side of the pond, the Yanks have made the issue thier own. there is an article and forum debate in Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2152031/#
To me this is more an illustration of mass self perpetuating nonsense. The woman in case would wear the veil in front of her male collegues yet not in front of the children, were none of the children male? This woman is playing the race/religion card because she feels wronged, this however does not make her claim valid. I cant tell you how many times I have heard this throught my life and I am now desensitised to it.
She lost her case and, I feel, it was right that she lost her case. There is no requirement in the Qur'an for any covering of the face, only for modesty. The full veil is a garment used by the most reppressive regimes, and justified by the most conservative interpretations of religion, to oppress women. That said, the veil should not be banned by governments in the West, as that would be to single out a minority in the population, and it would push more liberals within that minority towards the reactionaries. The state should not be able to dictate what someone can or cannot wear. Change must be organic, and it must come from within. The West took centuries to come to terms with its relationship of Christianity, the individual and the state and adopt more liberal outlooks. Islam will, in time, do the same. But it cannot be forced from without, only changed from within....
The French were widely condemned by European human rights groups now. They did couch the law in terms of a ban on all religious garments and symbols in school, so as not to be officially targeting any minority. But it is widely known that it was in fact targeted at their large Muslim minority. The French case is quite particular, and separate from the British one. They still operate around the principles of the French revolution. Firstly there is a hostility to religion amongst many sections of the population and they have no established church. Secondly, they view equality as meaning all people should unified under the French state. Minorities should be assimilated and participant in the political process. This means that the state must be regarded as higher than any religious value. The law, therefore, was an assertion of the state's power over religion, and of an attempt, however misguided, to bring Muslims into participation in politics over religion, whilst creating spaces that are free from religion. I agree with the state being more important than religious authorities, and there should be a separation of church and state. But the way it was handled in France seemed overly oppressive and misguided. I don't think anyone in the British government is calling for a ban on the veil, but the question is being raised over its relation to social situations. In teaching children, where communication is key, the veil should probably not be worn, and schools should have the right to restrict its use in the classroom for practical reasons....
They should be able to wear the veil in public but when for example it interfears with a job, they should take it off with no questions or quit. When that teacher kicked up a storm with the human rights weapon, she should accept that the veil should have been kept away. I mean how do you expect to communicate with a child if you have a cloth over your entire head? How will the child know that you are pleased with him or her? It is okey saying something but it is also about facial expressions. Perhaps those who wear the veil would rather have no faces. The rule of thumb in any employment, you keep your personal life out of your working life. Fail to do this and the employer has every reason to give you the can.
Indeed, religion should not take primacy over society. When religion is anything more than personal, I'm generally opposed to it....
Its a cultural thing as well as religous. Here in The States we have Nation of Islam; the gals dress very similar to Catholic nuns. You still get the full range of nuance from the exposed face, but as the hair and neck are covered, the image is still modest. The Niquab seems like an extreme from of dress for a person in a public position. I mean, if you want to go grocery shopping like that so what; but for a say bank teller or shop clerk, the image is strange.
The british state does dictate what we can wear as it arrests naked people, also there is a political aspect to this sort of clothing . Im not sure whether it is legal to wear nazi uniform or kkk hoods, but if you had a large and growing number of people wearing this uniform and just walking around town ,would this be a good thing for race relations. If your a adulterer ,or a homosexual, or someone who likes wearing bikinis or looking at people wearing bikinis, isnt your view of people wearing islamic uniform much like a jew watching a brownshirt uniform before the nazis came to power . There have been storys about women having their veils "shock" "horror" torn off , would you feel the same if someone had his brownshirt uniform belt cut and his trousers fell down, or kkk mask ripped off. Also what about the girls who get their throats cut in the uk by their own family for going out with a non muslim, thats far worse I would think that having your sectarian mask taken off . There are a estimated 200,000 muslim apostates in the uk lots of them have to go into hiding from family and friends http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584,00.html and as for banning the veil making people more fundi, the best islamic majority countrys like turkey have bans on the veil, I think tunisia and morroco either have them or are getting veil bans . I have friends who have worn niqab in the uk, this is what one said about it in a post "You wouldn't have a clue how suffocating it is, you are breathing in stale breath, the first time I wore one it took me a while to get used to breathing, I don't even like the sheet over my face when i'm sleeping because it makes the air stale, so to have to function on a day to day basis with something suffocating me is horrible. Do you know what it's like to be out food shopping on a hot summers day with a hijab on and a niqab? sweat, itchiness it's nasty. When I am out in the summer now, the breeze runs through my hair and cools me down, something that muslim women don't even have the freedom to do" . Not every muslim women in the uk chooses to wear this outfit as you can see from honour killings and the fact that asian girls are 3 times more likely to kill themselves thats the (official figure could be much higher )than white girls. Also from the number of girls who are shipped off to pakistan ect ,or beaten or killed in so called honour killings muslim girls are often under intense pressure to conform. your going to get girls saying yes I love to wear the burka or the niqab, but not hear from the ones who dont because its dangerous for them to speak out .
Actually I think it would probably be better if all neo-Nazis wore uniforms, it would be easier to identify and attack them. Having said that, I'm growing tired of your Nazi references Jonny. You have a valid argument as it is, there's really no need to slavishly return to the same comparison every time....
