wtc7 - intro to exploring 'oddities' of 9/11, peaceful info-based discussion only!

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There are a lot of assumptions here. It should have looked this way. It shouldn't have done that. Are you a demolitions engineer? How fast should a building fall? What should a collapse look like? There are a lot of people on the internet who afer 9/11 declared themselves experts in demolitions and civil engineering.

First of all, it is a fact that the building was heaviliy damaged by falling world trade towers - by some estimates a gouge tens of stories high. It did burn out of control for hours. So we know it was heavily damaged. We also have eyewitness testimony from firefighters saying they thought the building looked heavily damaged and at risk of collapse.

Also, a lot of speculation is put on the world "pull". The self proclaimed experts say pull means demolish. Well, does it? Says who? More importantly, what is "it"? Ask Silverstein and he'll say the firefighting operation. Suddenly though, the conspiracy theorists say he's lying and they will tell you what Silverstein meant by "pull" and "it". Well if you can define other people's words for them, its not going to be too hard to prove a conspiracy.

More later.

 

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controlled demo.

 

And why was the building quickly cleaned up and the steel melted down? No investigation needed acording to those in charge, it just collapsed, no more questions

 

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I think you need to read through this page.

http://911myths.com/html/wtc7_damage.html

There was extensive damange to WTC7, and it burned for hours. The firefighters who were nearby have been quoted saying that the building looked like it could collapse.

So we have a heavily damaged building which eyewitnesses said looked like it was in danger of collapse. Hours later it collapses, yet this is mysterious? Why are we supposed to believe that a building have have large extensive fires burning for hours and significant damage caused by the impact from the collapse of one of the world's largest buildings - yet of course all the controlled demolitions which had secretly been put in place were not set off or damaged by any of this. They survived so that a building nobody knew or cared about could be demolished. And why demolish it? No reason. After all, other heavily damaged buildings on the WTC site were demolished later, so why go to all the trouble of pre-wiring WTC7?

I'm not getting into engineering, there's lots of engineers out there who can argue the technical aspects. What I can do is explore the logic. And to me the logic looks like swiss cheese. It is less about making a coherent theory than just looking for anomolies and asking people to believe this somehow proves a conspiracy.

 

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Are you speaking as a structural engineer? A demolitions expert?

You mean the damage you can see, not the damaged caused. And you mean assuming that all the eyewitnesses are lying.

Its not off topic at all. You're trying to allude to conspiracies without actually coming out and saying what they are. Its Occalm's razor. Show me a more logical reason why the building came down. Wiring the buildings with explosives makes no logical sense even if there was a conspiracy, and that's a bit of a problem.

How many of them were hit by planes? How many had a 110 story building fall on them first? None. Lets take two wooden chairs. Set both on fire. Leave one where it is, throw the second out a 30 story window. The second one breaks - therefore it must have be wired with explosives? This is not real science.

Therefore eyewitness testimony from all the firefighters present is rejected. I can see how this makes it easier to steer things to the conclusion you want, but it doesn't work for me.

Sorry, I think that site is complete garbage. Go to the home page and read the intro, which says

It is pretty impressive to say "we all know" and then proceed to get basic facts all wrong - remember, this is a website DEDICATED to 9/11 investigation. The mastermind of 9/11 was [size=-1]Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and nobody suggested he was operating from a cave in Afghanistan. And the hijackers claimed to have bombs, as reported by passengers on the hijacked planes. What this website is saying is "we have all memorised the official story AS TOLD TO US BY CONSPIRACY WEBSITES".
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You should know, and you probably do, that phone in CNN polls have no statistical validity. I've seen conspiracy website forums where you get these "URGENT: everybody go to CNN and vote quickly!!!!1!!!" type messages.

And what does the number prove? 10 million Elvis fans can't be wrong? 80% of Americans believed that the governmen is covering up how incompetent they are OR that holograph planes crashed into the twin towers? Now I do believe there are a lot of people that believe in conspiracy. 33% of Americans believe in horoscopes, 20% think god favors America. Creationism is quite popular. And I'm sure that in 1939 x% of Germans thought the jews were behind all the problems. But so what? I'm not joining this movement even if it gets to 99% until somebody shows me some real proof.

Also, you said this was an honest discussion, the "just asking questions" line. But you keep jumping from one conspiracy to the next, and they all seem to repeat word for word what the conspiracy sites are saying. Same stories, same quotes. Why not just admit that's where you are getting all this stuff?

I'm especially surprised you would refer to a "brigham young physics professor". Physics is not structural engineering. Steve Jones refuses to peer review his work, and may get kicked out of the university for the embarassment his junk science has caused. This is not credible, especially when peer reviewed studies do exist. The collapse has been very widely studied, how many hundreds of scientists, universities, and professional societies have you had to ignore or accuse of being part of the conspiracy? Because there is a mountain of professional opinion against you.

And predictably, you are quote mining. "It was as if as if they had detonated". As if. Does he think they were detonated? You are projecting this view onto them. Google search for "sounded like a bomb going off" and you'll find lots of things that were not bombs going off, and where people were not trying to imply that bombs were secretly planted.

And secondary explosions are completely normal in a large fire.

 

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Sorry, been through this before. Copy and paste conspiracy argument. Refute/debunk. Copy paste new conspiracy theory. Refute/debunk. Copy paste new conspiracy argument... there are what, hundreds out there. Pod theory anyone? I'm sure you can keep it up forever. But you're not really responding to anything I say. You're not trying to explain why the gigantic logic holes in these theories should be ignored.

Seriously, what do polls prove? That a lot of people believe in conspiracy theories (and horoscopes, god, elvis is alive, the earth is flat, nobody landed on the moon)... I don't care. If you are joining this movement to make friends, you must be thrilled. But the polls mean nothing to me. And the fact that "conservative" americans believe something - so? Conservative americans believe in NWO and globalist conspiracy theories. This is no more exciting than finding out that the extreme left believes America was behind 9/11 for oil money. Extremists warp reality to fit their stereotypes.

I am however extremely grateful that the conspirators behind 9/11 and their plot to take over the world were kind enough to release the documents on Northwoods right around the time of 9/11. That and putting up the PNAC document - which if you believe conspiracy websites is a plan for world domination - you have to thank the conspirators for putting everything on the web for them. They wouldn't want to make it too hard for us, right?

 

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I'm not interested in polls. However many people believe this means nothing. Polls don't prove something is true, they prove people believe something is true.

That's a nice sentiment, but the truth movement doesn't have science on its side. That why Jones won't submit his paper for peer review. That's why the only peer reviewed studies on the collapses don't conclude controlled demolition. That's why the overwhelming conclusion of scientists and engineers, whether individuals or schools or professional associations, are not buying this conspiracy. Its not like nobody s looked at it - this event has been very widely studied as it had signifiant implications for the construction industry.

And science is not saying nice things and then having a professor or theology like Griffin tell you how the WTC should or should not have collapsed.

The idea is to cherry pick evidence, look for anomolies and assume that they all mean conspiracy.

It does however prove that the "research" is extremely sloppy, biased, dishonest, and when proved wrong continues to circulate through the conspiracy movement unharmed.

Conspiracy theories are consistent? If everybody could agree on the conspiracy. But they don't. Holograph planes? Drones? Pods? A nuclear bomb in the basement? The CIA? The globalists? The mossad? They are growing every day in every direction.

Northwoods never got beyond a piece of paper. The fact that it was rejected and revealed right around the time of 9/11 seems a bit inconvenient for you, doesn't it? Why would they release such a document? And it never called for killing US citizens. It was going to happen far out at sea where there was nobody to say what really happened. Not much in common with 9/11 there.

What Northwoods shows is what Lewinsky, Watergage, Abu Ghraib, Iran Contra, and countless other scandals show. The US can't keep a secret, even when only a handful of people are involved. The idea that a vast conspiracy of thousands could remain completely undetected is absurd.

 

Hi, jonjan,

I should have some excellent information for this thread in a few days (a colleague is putting finishing touches on his study) that points directly to the issue that NIST has made an erroneous hypothesis regarding why it believes WTC7 fell due to debris damage to the structure coupled with the ensuing fires.

However, in the meantime, here are some testimonies involving explosions at the WTC that support controlled demolitions: (courtesy of cerberus at PhyOrgForum)

One of the most interesting for me is the account of Mike Pecoraro, who worked as a stationary engineer for the WTC complex. After the impact of the plane at WTC 1 and well before the collapse, he and a co-worker visited the sub-basement levels to find not only the machine shop (at the C level) gone, but also the parking garage gone. According to Mike, where there should have been a machine shop, there was “nothing there but rubble….We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press? gone!" Regarding the parking garage: "There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything.” As they headed up to the lobby, upon arriving at subbasement B level, they found a steel and concrete fire door weighing about 300 pounds wrinkled up “like a piece of aluminum foil.” His first thought: “They got us again.” (referring to the first WTC bombing)

None of the shills I’ve ever asked, bless their hearts, have been willing to try and explain how the impact of a plane ~95 floors up disappeared the parking garage and a machine shop in the subbasement.

Here are some of the other eyewitnesses (not meant to be an exhaustive list):

"There were definitely bombs in those buildings... many other firemen know there were bombs in the buildings, but they're afraid for their jobs to admit it because the 'higher-ups' forbid discussion of this fact."
- FDNY Auxiliary Lieutenant Fireman Paul Isaac

"It was as if as if they had detonated... as if they had planned to take down a building, boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom."
- FDNY Captain Dennis Tardio

"When I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down,... I saw low-level flashes... I saw a flash-flash-flash and then it looked like the building came down... You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw."
- FDNY Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory

"It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit... We originally had thought there was like an internal detonation, explosives, because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down."
- FDNY Firefighter Edward Cachia

"Somewhere around the middle... there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode... With each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building."
- FDNY Captain Karin Deshore

“At first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear ‘Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop’? That's exactly what -- because I thought it was that.”
- EMS EMT Daniel Rivera

"…it almost actually that day sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight, and then just a huge wind gust just came."
- FDNY Firefighter Thomas Turilli

"There is an explosion at the base of the building... white smoke from the bottom... something happened at the base of the building! Then another explosion.”
- WNYW Fox 5 Anchor Ernie Anastos Describing First Seconds Of The Collapse Of WTC 2

“I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93”
- FDNY Firefighter Kennith Rogers

"Heard explosions coming from... the south tower... There were about ten explosions... We then realized the building started to come down."
- FDNY Firefighter Craig Carlsen

"I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there were bombs set in the building."
- FDNY Firefighter Louie Cacchioli

“There was just an explosion in the south tower. It seemed like on television when they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.”
- FDNY Firefighter Richard Banaciski

"A debate began to rage because... many people had felt that possibly explosives had taken out 2 World Trade."
- FDNY Firefighter Christopher Fenyo

"There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons... There was another explosion. And another. I didn't know where to run."
- WTC 1 Employee Teresa Veliz

“I hear simultaneously this roar and see what appears to be a gigantic fireball rising up at ground level…I remember thinking that the fire and explosion didn’t get us but the smoke will if we don’t get out of here soon.

“…I remember seeing this giant ball of fire come out of the earth as I heard this roar and thinking, ‘Who’s going to explain to my kids that I needed to be at the World Trade Center on this day?’”
- CBS News contributor Carol Marin

“My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.”
- FDNY Deputy Commissioner for Administration Thomas Fitzpatrick

“I got up, I got into the parking garages, was knocked down by the percussion. I thought there had been an explosion or a bomb that they had blown up there. The Vista International Hotel was my first impression, that they had blown it up.”
- FDNY Captain Michael Donovan

“This one here. It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other.”
- FDNY Battalion Chief Dominick DeRubbio

“And while I was still in that immediate area, the south tower, 2 World Trade Center, there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.”
- FDNY Chief Frank Cruthers

“We started filing out and following the line of the building. I got just to underneath the north walkway. A guy started screaming to run. When I got underneath the north bridge I looked back and you heard it, I heard like every floor went chu-chu-chu. Looked back and from the pressure everything was getting blown out of the floors before it actually collapsed.”
- FDNY Firefighter James Curran

“The tower was--it looked to me--I thought it was exploding, actually. That’s what I thought for hours afterwards, that it had exploded or the plane or there had been some device on the plane that had exploded, because the debris from the tower had shot out far over our heads.

“While I was down at Battery Park I finally got through on my phone to my father and said, ‘I’m alive. I just wanted to tell you, go to church, I’m alive. I just so narrowly escaped this thing.’ He said, ‘Where were you? You were there?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I was right there when it blew up.’ He said, ‘You were there when the planes hit?’ I said, ‘No, I was there when it exploded, the building exploded.’ He said, ‘You mean when it fell down?’ I said, ‘No, when it exploded.’ I still didn’t realized what had happened. I totally thought it had been blown up. That’s just the perspective of looking up at it, it seemed to have exploded out. But that I guess was the force of the upper stories collapsing down.”
- FDNY Firefighter John Coyle

“... the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out. I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out.”
- FDNY Battalion Chief Brian Dixon

“So the explosion, what I realized later, had to be the start of the collapse. It was the way the building appeared to blowout from both sides. I'm looking at the face of it, and all we see is the two sides of the building just blowing out and coming apart like this, as I said, like the top of a volcano.”
- FDNY Lieutenant Gary Gates

“But it seemed like I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped. I thought it was an explosion.”
- FDNY Firefighter Timothy Burke

“We originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.”
- FDNY Firefighter Ed Cachia

“I should say that people in the street and myself included thought that the roar was so loud that the explosive - bombs were going off inside the building.”
- FDNY Assistant Commissioner James Drury

“After that I heard this huge explosion, I thought it was a boiler exploding or something. Next thing you know this huge cloud of smoke is coming at us, so we're running.”
- EMS EMT James McKinley

“As we are looking up at the building, what I saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing out.”
- FDNY Firefighter Joseph Meola

“I thought it was an explosion or a secondary device, a bomb, the jet -- plane exploding, whatever.”
- EMS Captain Janice Olszewski

“I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion. I thought it was a secondary device, but I knew that we had to go.”
- FDNY Firefighter Jay Swithers

“And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower, somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out.”
- FDNY Deputy Assistant Chief Albert Turi

“I don't know what time later a loud rumble -- it sounded like an explosion. We thought it was a bomb... and number two tower comes down...”
- Thomas Spina

“I felt the rumbling, and then I felt the force coming at me. I was like, what the hell is that? In my mind it was a bomb going off.”
- FDNY Firefighter John Malley

“I don't think we understood the magnitude of what was going on. I was fearful that there were bombs in the building. That was my first thought, being the military kind of guy that I am.”
- FDNY Lieutenant George DeSimone

“We heard a rumbling noise, and it appeared that that first tower, the south tower, had exploded, the top of it. That's what I saw, what a lot of us saw.
“I remember asking Ray Downey was it the jet fuel that blew up. He said at that point he thought there were bombs up there because it was too even. As we've since learned, it was the jet fuel that was dropping down that caused all this. But he said it was too even.
Q. Symmetrical?
A. So his original thought was that he thought it was a bomb up there as well.
“We didn't know the building came down. We just knew the top of the building exploded and didn't know what happened to the rest of the building. You just couldn't see anything.
- FDNY Chaplain John Delendick

“...I didn't know exactly what was going on outside. I'm thinking maybe the building snapped in half. I'm thinking maybe a bomb blew up. I'm thinking it could have been a nuclear.”
- FDNY Lieutenant Richard Smiouskas

“As we came in through the revolving doors, the lights went out. A second or two later everything started to shake. You could hear explosions. We didn't know what it was. We thought it was just a small collapse. As I looked straight ahead of me, I saw total darkness. Everything was coming our way like a wave.”
- FDNY Firefighter Fernando Camacho

“That's when it went. I looked back. You see three explosions and then the whole thing coming down. I turned my head and everybody was scattering.”
- FDNY Firefighter Frank Campagna

“... and then I heard an explosion from up, from up above, and I froze and I was like, oh, ***, I'm dead because I thought the debris was going to hit me in the head and that was it….I look over my shoulder and I says, oh, ***, and then I turned around and looked up and that's when I saw the tower coming down….

“...we don’t even get to the back of the building. We start walking back there and then I heard a ground level explosion and I’m like holy ***, and then you heard that twisting metal wreckage again. Then I said *** and everybody started running…

“…and I heard six loud explosions, and those explosions changed my mind real quick.”
- EMS EMT Jason Charles

“All of a sudden we heard this huge explosion, and that's when the tower started coming down. We all started running.”
- FDNY Firefighter Roy Chelsen

“Right as he said that, I heard a loud roar, ‘boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,’ and it was getting louder. I looked around, and we were looking at each other. What is that noise? I just looked out the window of the lobby. I could see stuff out of the window of the lobby hitting the street, and I just dove into the corner of the wall…. I turned, I took maybe a couple more steps, and then I heard another explosion, it sounded like. I looked up, and the north tower was starting to come down.”
- John Citarelli

“The collapse hadn't begun, but it was not a fire any more up there. It was like -- it was like that -- like smoke explosion on a tremendous scale going on up there.”
- FDNY Firefighter Brian Becker

“We were standing underneath and Captain Stone was speaking again. We heard -- I heard 3 loud explosions. I look up and the north tower is coming down now, 1 World Trade Center.”
- EMS EMT Greg Brady

“...what happened at that time, it seemed like an explosion was coming from there. I thought an explosion was coming from there. That’s when everybody started running...”
- EMS EMT Alan Cooke

“With that, all a sudden the tower went completely -- a horrendous noise, a very, very tremendous explosion, and a very heavy wind came through the tower. The wind almost knocked you down.
- FDNY Firefighter Paul Curran

“At that time I started walking back up towards Vesey Street. I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.”
- EMS EMT Kevin Darnowski

“... I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes.”
- FDNY Firefighter Kevin Gorman

“The next thing I know, we heard a little bit of a rumbling, and then white powder came from the first collapsed building. I thought it was an explosion initially. We got hit with the powder. We tried to run.

“After that, I still thought it was an explosion. I thought it was some kind of thermal explosion where I'm either going to get burnt -- and I had kind of ideas that it was going to be something like Hiroshima where all this heat was coming at me and we were going to get burnt -- or if the heat didn't burn me, I thought that all the parts coming out of this building, the windows, metal, all the things like that, that I might be severed in half.

“We got to maybe one block north of where the Battery Tunnel exits onto West Street there, and then, boom, a massive explosion. Right in front of us we saw what looked like a fireball and smoke. It was rolling this way.

“Then there was another it sounded like an explosion and heavy white powder, papers, flying everywhere.”
- FDNY Battalion Chief Mark Steffens

“The best I can remember, we were just operating there, trying to help out and do the best we could. Then we heard a loud explosion or what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down.
- FDNY Batallion Chief John Sudnik

“All of a sudden there was this groaning sound like a roar, grrrr. The ground started to shake....It looked like an earthquake. The ground was shaking. I fell to the floor. My camera bag opened up. The cameras went skidding across the floor. The windows started exploding in.

“We just made our turn to go in towards the lobby of tower two. For whatever reason, I just happened to look up and saw the whole thing coming down, pancaking down, and the explosion, blowing out about halfway up.”
- FDNY Firefighter Howie Scott

“We were probably just at West Street, just at the street. Then the south tower -- we heard an explosion, looked up, and the building started to collapse.”
- FDNY Firefighter Edward Sheehey