any unschoolers here?

Hello.

Books smarts are not all that counts in this world. Maybe it does in corporate america, but I know plenty of people who never went to college and have better jobs than those who paid for an education.

Homeschoolers are taught basic skills. Infact, alot of homeschoolers know more basic skills than public schooled children. If you check out the statistics on homeschooling vs. public schooling, you'll see that homeschoolers score higher on testing.

The thing about homeschooling vs.public schooling is that homeschoolers get that one on one attention that is lacking in public schools. Not all kids learn the same way, but in public school they are expected to. Kids have very different learning styles and unfortunately, teachers are not equipt to deal with them. So many kids are left to just make do with what they are given and end up not doing well at all in school. Most public schools are have one mind set when it comes to learning and that doesn't really work when you are dealing with all different kinds of students.

Homeschooling is natural. Public schooling isn't. Sure there are many kids who do well and go on to get great jobs and do well in life, but if you actually look at the statistics, the public school system is not working for all. Most kids graduate below 'c' average and most do not go on to college.

I've done my research. Iv'e read everything I can to find out what I need to know about public schooling and although the 'socialization' things gets brought up, that is the least of everyone's worries.

 

my ex husband was 'homeschooled'. i put that in quotations because his parents didn't help him learn anything. he pretty much 'unschooled' himself during his childhood... he still 'unschools' himself constantly about the things he's passionate about. nobody ever taught him to be 'book smart', nobody taught him to be street smart either.

he now makes $25 - $40 an hour doing computer work. he builds them, fixes them, advises on them. when he's not doing computer work, he's a carpenter where he also charges $25 an hour. he apprenticed for carpentry, but taught himself everything he knows about computers.

i know quite a few people who have graduated college and university with honours and the whole nine yards and who are now in debt up to their ears and can't find work because they are 'over qualified' or the career they studied for is now a flooded market. many of them work in the local walmart.

so, what i'm saying is that book smarts (and papers/qualifications/credentials) aren't everything. my ex would probably be considered to have no book smarts, but he's doing well for himself.

-z

 

we're free range learners here. i'm amazed at my son's drive to learn and i dont ever want to put him into a situation (like public school--i'm sure he would be bored to tears or "disruptive" behaviour) that could quench his thirst for knowledge. i think the whole idea that children must learn academic skills (like the three r's) early is really misguided. kids will learn when they're ready, and if you coerce them into learning, then they will resist: learning will become a chore for them, and you'll effectively put a huge damper on their desire to learn.

i think that public schools dumb down kids. unschooling give kids the tools to learn and teaches children how to think for themselves, not how to become some mindless automaton following the dictates of the teacher/the school board/the govt/the corporation, etc

and what is this thing about "socialization" anyways? look at HOW kids are socialized in public schools! bullies, gangs, cliques, etc... who needs THAT shit?

 

Through the seasons of our lives we share in many "educational" opportunities that create alternative sources of income that we as a family share in. My girls grew up unschooling and then my oldest decided when she was in high school to return to the public school system and loves it, as she is in a special dance school and is following her passions in with in the system. My youngest is now 14 and tried public school last year and decided to return to homeschooling.
We prefer the hands on natural learning style of home education which allows us to include our volunteer work, and our hobbies and living life.
There are so many ways to include "educationese" in your daily activities and have them be part of your "educational portfolio" which will sastify the folks that you need to.

For example: volunteer work of any kind can be applied to consumer education, work experience, etc.
Cooking can be classified as science, math, language arts, home economics etc.
Going for walks, can be nature studies, global environment studies, consumer education, social studies, physical education etc.
Any sports such as skateboarding, hockey, soccer, swimming can be turned into any subjects as well as physical education if you do any kind of research and create a scrapbook or become part of a club. My daughter loves to skateboard, and has met other kids who also enjoy this sport.
Reading novels which is something that my kids love to do for fun can become part of social stufies, language arts, history, research etc.

"Socialization" has never been an issue for us, as we have always taken on jobs that include meeting and interacting with other people. For many years I took contract jobs and when the jobs ended we would hop on a Greyhound bus and travel to another city and take another job. I always took jobs that could include my kids such as farm work, catering or cooking jobs on ranches or retreat centres, participated in communities, did community development work.
Both of my girls have grown up with a good apprecation and desire for continuing life learning whenever opportunities present themselves.

Our philosophy is that life is full of opportunities waiting to be discovered and explored.

 

We participate in a program called Flat Travelers...here is the link to the program.

http://flatstanley.enoreo.on.ca/

Basically you create a paper doll and decorate it how you like. Then you send it through the mail with a journal to other homeschooling families and you have your Flat Traveler visit with them for a couple of weeks and then they return your paper doll to you. With the mail comes a journal , photos and other information .
This is a great way to learn social studies, explore other places cheaply, and meet other homeschooling families.
I love it and it is so great for the kids...you can incorporate so many "subject areas" by participating in this project.
Creative Writing, art, social studies, math while you plot the journey on a map, map skills, social development etc.

There is also a yahoo group to join that is just for homeschoolers if you are interested.

 

All I can say is "Oh My Goddess." When do we allow these poor children to be children. Remedial at age 3 because they can't do fractions. My three year old is barely learning to count to three. We're working on things like circle and square. He's learning, at his own pace. But he is a child. If he can't read until he is 8 or 9 and he can't do fractions until he is 10, so be it. But he's going to learn to be a little boy. Children need to be happy healthy children before they can ever be happy adults.

And I have to agree with another poster who said that her children are socialized because they are around all age groups. The world is not made up of 5 year olds sitting together. My son has friends who are 3 and friends who are 33 and friends who are 73. This is how the real world works.

Kathi

 

No not "all that counts" but that shouldn't mean that it isn't important. There is enough time, in life to learn both casually, or formally and with books as well as life itself as a learning tool. Books are one of the most amazing and neccesary things we can introduce our children to.

I am a book nut, as are most of my kids. We have "book smarts" up the wazoo. My dh and I have massive amounts of "book learnin'", and non book smarts as well. My dh makes a damn good living, as can I, with my BS, and two Master's degrees.(Lots and LOTS of books involved in that.) One IS more likely to do well financially with more college as well as more "book learning." Eventually. Small children don't need to be learning things beyond what they are capable of, but the basics still need to be taught eventually. I think that goes without saying. I find it amazing that anyone would put down BOOKS, for heaven's sake.

I wholeheartly agree.

Quite a few? C'mon.
I know of no one with a PhD who works at WalMart, that is just silly. And anecdotes like this don't make any points, as anyone can choose any one anecdote they want (or even make them up) to "prove" a point. I grew up in Academia, (my father is a college professor) and I think children can get an excellent education at home, but BOOKS and the learning they provide simply cannot be replaced by "playing" alone. (Not that playing isin't absolutely neccesary, the two are not mutually exclusive.) BOTH are needed for a well rounded individual. As, IMO, is a college education. College forces you to learn things you might not have thought about before, and broadens your mind to learn about concepts that you probably wouldn't have stumbled upon just being in the kitchen or the garden alone, or just reading what already interested you. Not that the kitchen or the garden aren't important, they are, but ways to incorporate BOTH into a child's education. My dd Sage (age 5) will see something in the garden, investigate it, learn about it hands on and we will come into the house, and open a book to learn MORE about what she experienced. THIS is the best of both worlds.

I think BOTH books and natural osmotic learning are of equal, vital importance to both children and adults. A good solid basis of GOOD education and learning can be done at home, and should be. Life consists of more than only "just doing what one is interested in." (and sadly, this is how several of my unschooling freinds have interpreted "unschooling" to mean. Perhaps they aren't clear on the concept either.) I wish that is ALL life were about, but it simply isn't. Giving a child the idea that life just hands you nothing but what you are "interested in" is doing them a great disservice.

I don't think 3 year olds need to be doing fractions, but 10 year olds should. It's part of life. How are they going to pay bills, cook, bake, or even get a job at all without proper background in basics? HOW you teach them isn't important, but the fact that the basics NEED to be taught doesn't even need to be argued. Life is more than just doing what is pleasant and "interesting." I wish reality were different. But the realities of life isn't something one can change by teaching a certain way.

I can also give "anecdotes." (For what anecdotes are worth, not much.) A freind of mine who "unschooled" and had her children never learn anything they weren't "interested in" and never taught any math because she wasn't "good at it" and didn't think her children really needed to know more than how to count change at the grocery store,(which she thought was some Great Lesson, that nonhome schoolers never did ) is having lots of problems with her 20 year old son. He dropped out of Community College, after barely making it through 2 quarters (the teachers "didn't understand" him,) and insisted he do the work the rest of the class was doing, (gasp) even if he thought it wasn't "interesting" and now, he cannot keep a job as all the jobs he can get, with no college, are "boring and repetitive."

He currently spends his days playing video games and browsing the internet (much of his unschooled days consisted of dong just these things alone.) He doesn't even go out much, as most of the boys his age are working, going to college or both. He claims he is "too intelligent and imaginative" to work in WalMart or Burger King, but I don't see Fermi Lab lining up outside his house to hire him or Viking Press giving him a book deal on a yet unwritten work, due to his "imagination." He wants to work in "Research" and "Science" but he never learned the basics of mathmatics, and couldn't stay in the college level Chemistry or Electronic classes, because math was neccesary, and he never learned it. He also wants to "be a writer" but doesn't have the disicpline to sit and write without getting "bored." What will become of this boy? Is this child an "unschooling failure?" I hope not, for his sake.

I think "unschooling" can be done. But I think it take a VERY good teacher to incorporate all the neccesities and not just allow the child to "learn" only what they are interested in alone. It takes a very disciplined and educated parent/teacher to make sure the education is well balanced and the child is not going into the world with a serious deficit. IMO, it appears Mosaic really knows what she is doing. THIS Is the kind of teacher parent which does so well with this type learning. Good going, Mosaic. IMO, it is actually HARDER to teach this way, and takes a special mama or dad to do it properly.

Life is hard. No one will make exceptions for you because you are "imaginative." I wish they would, but it just isn't true.

This is nothing more than MY opinion, and what I have seen in the way my own 4 children learn and the successes and failures of the regular schooled and homeschooled children I know. I am NOT putting down unschooling, just giving my opinions. I DO see people who do well with it, and whose children have thrived!!!!!

 

my parents' friend is home-schooling her child, and although she mixes with the children of her mother's friends thats as far as her knowledge of other cultures go; she's not aloud to watch television and has therefore become very isolated. she's a lovely child but i dread to think what she'll go to when forced leave home and fit in with everyone else in the country.

I think the benefit of state (or in america, public) schools are that the children meet so many different people from different countries, religeous groups, and classes. they create their own opinion on things rather than seeing the world through their parent's eyes; if you do take your children out to visit places and people they will only be places and people that you approve of.

i've also noticed many people think that in schools all children are treated as the same. this is not true; both my parents are teachers and spend hours talking to parents, organising seperate work for children that find things more difficult/easier than most, and encouraging them in the subjects they seem to flourish. my mother especially, who teaches primary education, becomes very close to her pupils and knows them inside out. you just have to read the thank-you letters from both children and parents to realise the effect many teachers have on their pupil's lives.

another advantage of going to school is escaping home; no home is completely perfect even if it's loving and stimulating. for instance, if their parents are going through a rough patch like all couples do at some point, it can be a massive relief for a child to leave all that behind and be in a completely different enviroment for a few hours to clear their head.

I was bullied for a year when i was eleven; before secondary school i had gone to a smaller school in our village that was quite isolated. but after that I made friends, and learnt how it's possible to be an individual in an enviroment where most people are set on being excatly the same. now i'm not 'cool' but i've got many friends from many different warps of life and know who I am in comparison with everyone else; its made me stronger. just like real life its a case of living alongside people who have completely different views on the world, many of which you disagree with and could argue about, but still managing to eat lunch with them.

 

Booksmarts are great, I don't disagree, but I think the idea that people have about sitting and doing work strictly from books is a bit much. I read every day, as do my children. Books are a big part of my families life. We spend three days a week at the library browsing and atleast an hour a day reading to eachother.

I want my children to be well rounded and learn in many different ways, not just from books. They cook, craft, take field trips, visit museums, we plan on starting volunteer work soon and they are involved in sports and church. We also learned to make clay from our backyard and are going to do some building so they can learn carpentry.

I also make sure that they are learning important subjects such as Math, Science, Social Studies, geography....

There is a website you can go to (depending on your public school system) to find out what the basic requirements are for each grade level. Here, my kids have to be tested at the end of the year and so I want to make sure they are learning the basic things to them ready for the testing.

 

That seems like a really good idea. I tried to introduce my little brother to carpentry the last time I was home - he actually seemed quite interested. I wasn't much of a mentor though, unfortunately - his interest might have been somewhat more sustained if I had shown him something impressive that I had 'made earlier', for example. I suspect my 'work in progress' didn't really cut it .......Anyway, I'm diverging - sorry!

A thought-provoking discussion - if I may say so.

 

it's silly. but from the people i know it happens. maybe it doesn't happen so much in your town, more power to you all, but it happens here. you're right that just about anyone can come up with anecdotes to make their point... i wasn't trying to prove anything, just pointing out that book smarts don't always equal the "American/Canadian Dream".

i'm really glad you grew up in Academia... the way you pointed that out rubs me the wrong way. because you grew up with a father who is a professor, does that give you more knowledge on this topic? or is your opinion somehow more educated? maybe i'm just taking it wrong...?

anyway, i agree that books are very important. i have a house full of them. nothing can replace what one can learn in books. the point i was trying to make was that booksmarts aren't everything. a person can be highly educated (either from homeschooling or from a more 'traditional' type school) and still end up in a crappy job.

if booksmarts were everything, why isn't everyone who ever went to college or university a 'winner' in our society? why don't all college/university grads have high paying jobs? why do so many of them still struggle to pay off the debts incurred from getting that education that promised them a great high paying job?

personally, i think ANY institution forcing anyone to think about anything is wrong. since when did our brains become the subject of what other people think we should know? as an example, who decided kids absolutely must be reading by age 6 or forever be labeled as 'behind'? why do we allow people to decide what anyone of any age must know at all?

i think places or people who can help you broaden your mind are absolutely wonderful, but i do think people should be able to choose of their own free will what they want to find out more about instead of being forced to learn. and once they find out what they wanted to know, they should be free to move on until they are ready to come back with another question and learn more.

and this is exactly what i think unschooling should be about... let the child lead. be there when your child asks questions and use whatever resources you can get your hands on to help them find the answers. but i also think that if the 'student' loses interest, there is no point in continuing until they are ready... there is no point in forcing any more information into anyone's brains when they have had enough for the time being.

-z

 

ITA! I couldn't say it better myself!

Ladybirdhawk, thanks for the link on Flat Travelers, it sounds like great fun! I know my girls will love participating, but the web site says "Unless you are involved with an accredited institution that will vouch for you and I can check out, I won't let individuals become involved." Is there a homeschooling alternative to the institutional program?

Smiling Rose, in England children may meet many different people from different countries, religious groups and classes, in the state schools, but here in middle America, USA, we tend to have very limited cultural, religious and class exposure in the schools. My children were (and the younger ones still are)exposed to many different cultures, religions, and classes through sports programs, music and dance classes, travel, and participation in art and music fairs, volunteer programs, and living in a diverse, multi-cultural city. Their peers that attend the local schools (as well as my husband's students in public school) have very limited exposure to diverse cultures, etc. within the school, other than through books and videos, which my Home Learners also have exposure to. We have always felt that the ability to expose our children to a wide range of cultures, lifestyles, etc. is a benifit to Home education.

I agree Maggie Sugar! We have our diningroom and living room lined with book shelves that are crammed with books. We love books and one of the reasons I choose to home educate is because my husband and I wanted to pass along our love of reading to our children without having them possibly "turned off" to reading as I have seen happen to so many kids, especially boys. I know not all schooled kids get turned off to reading, but many do, and there and plenty of adults that never read for pleasure.

awe gee thanks Maggie! *face turns red*
I agree that unschooling is HARDER! Maybe the name makes it sound easier, as if the "un" means you don't do anything. That is why I prefer terms like home education, home learning, or as nimh said "free range learners". This method of education takes a lot of determination, patience, and imagination on the part of both the parent and child. The thing is though, it is also more FUN, proving, as well as teaching, the fact that work should be fun and things worth doing are worth the hard effort we have to put into them.

 

persephonewillow, I am sorry I rubbed you the wrong way, it wasn't my intent.

When I said people are "forced" to learn things they may not have learned on their own, I meant it as a good thing. I learned things in my Psychology and Philosophy and Research classes that I had NEVER been exposed to before. Before these classes (some of them) I had no interest in some of the things discussed, but when I HAD to learn the stuff, it opened NEW doors for me. If the education hadn't been there to "make" me learn it, I would have missed out on a lot of knowlege. ANd new ways of thinking. I read a LOT on my own, but basically didn't read what didn't interest me. When I had to, when I was in college, I learned things that would have been out of my reach otherwise. It gave me perspectives and knowlege that I would never have learned if I had only read about things which "interested" me. There is a lot bigger world out there than our initial interests lead us to. IMO, Higher Education, especially if you study Liberal Arts, OPENS your box like nothing else.

No, you are kinda taking it wrong. What I was trying to say, is that I grew up in a home where learning was a given. I was not homeschooled traditionally, but there were books and people around that opened my mind to new things. It does NOT mean I have more knowlege on this topic, just that it gives me a perspective on Higher Education, and what it does for many. None of my father's collegues ever worked at WalMart or anything like that. They put their time and effort into Advanced Education, and it paid off for all of them. I assume there are people with advanced degrees who do NOT do well, I just don't know many of them at all. And I know an abundance of people in the field of Higher Learning. Doesn't mean I know more about Home Schooling, though. My entire point wasn't really about home schooling, per se, it was about the importance of BOOKS and learning the Basics of Math, Reading, Science, Composition ect. Sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention

 

Exactly. I never said book learning alone was the end all and be all of learning. If you read my entire post, you will know I NEVER said "sitting around and doing work strictly from books" was the only way to learn. My point said just the opposite. But books are STILL very very important.

 

and i'm sorry right back. lol. i've learned it's better to get any 'beefs' out on the table and be corrected if i'm taking it wrong rather than assuming the worst, kwim?

your perspective on the topic is very interesting i can see a benefit to higher education and 'book smarts', i just don't agree with how schools work. i think the sad part is, by the time a student gets to attend any colleges or universities they are already so 'schooled' that they know all of the tricks to getting the grades they need to graduate well. instead of debating with teachers, most students will agree with them orally and in their school work, even if they don't agree mentally/emotionally/morally, lest they put their grades at risk... kwim? as great as some teachers are, they aren't immune to having their own likes and dislikes that can influence how they grade students.

of course, grading is another thing i disagree with... but that's a whole other topic! lol.

-z

 

The University I attended was not like this, and neither was the one my father taught at. Occasional respectful debate (in subjects where it was applicable) was always allowed, but one does go to university to learn things they don't already know. Also it is not fair for the other students, who are paying money to LEARN to have to listen to arguments, when they paid for a class to LEARN the subject.

Something that did piss off my father was when people would take his EVOLUTION class and argue that evolution wasn't true and use "junk science" to argue. (It wasted everyone's time and money, and yeah, if they persisted my father would have them taken out of the class, they were only there as "trollers" if you will.) If you don't beleive in Evolution, don't take an Evolution class. Most University classes aren't meant for UNLIMITED debate. It is still a learning enviroment. Want unlimited debate? Most of this goes on in the dorms and bars after hours. And there is plenty of time for that. There are only so many hours that a class meets.

But, when I went to college and grad school, we were always allowed to ask questions. But starting a "Psychology is bullshit" argument in the middle of a Psych 101 class is just bad manners........and considering that in some basic classes there were 100 or more students, nothing would get done, if it was nothing but arguing going on. Most universities have Debating Clubs, if that's what turns someone on.

I was just wondering if you had a bad experience at college. Where did you attend University? Liberal Arts Unis are usually more, well, Liberal. And many subjects are just pure science. Fact, really no room for debate. I couldn't see my dh debating Electronics principles in his Electronics classes. A copper wire is a copper wire and it conducts at a certian, measured non debatable rate, not much to debate.

 

Where would we be today without some of these homeschoolers?
Seems like these people did pretty good thinking for themselves & without public school.



Educators

• Frank Vandiver (President - Texas A&M)
  Fred Terman (President - Stanford)
  William Samuel Johnson (President Columbia)
  John Witherspoon (President of Princeton)

Generals

• Stonewall Jackson
  Robert E. Lee
  Douglas MacArthur
  George Patton

Inventors

• Alexander Graham Bell
  Thomas Edison
  Cyrus McCormick
  Orville Wright & Wilbur Wright

Artists

• Claude Monet
  Leonardo da Vinci
  Jamie Wyeth
  Andrew Wyeth
  John Singleton Copley

Presidents

• George Washington
  Thomas Jefferson
  John Quincy Adams
  James Madison
  William Henry Harrison
  John Tyler
  Abraham Lincoln
  Theordore Roosevelt
  Woodrow Wilson
  Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Scientists

• George Washington Carver
  Pierre Curie
  Albert Einstein
  Booker T. Washington
  Blaise Pascal

Statesmen

• Konrad Adenauer
  Winston Churchill
  Benjamin Franklin
  Patrick Henry
  William Penn
  Henry Clay

United States Supreme Court Judges

• John Jay
  John Marshall
  John Rutledge

Composers

• Irving Berlin
  Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
  Anton Bruckner
  Felix Mendelssohn
  Francis Poulenc

Writers

• Hans Christian Anderson
  Charles Dickens
  Brett Harte
  Mark Twain
  Sean O'Casey
  Phillis Wheatley
  Mercy Warren
  Pearl S. Buck
  Agatha Christie
  C.S. Lewis
  George Bernard Shaw

Religious leaders

• Joan of Arc
  Brigham Young
  John & Charles Wesley
  Jonathan Edwards
  John Owen
  William Cary
  Dwight L. Moody
  John Newton

Others

• Charles Chaplin - Actor
  George Rogers Clark - Explorer
  Andrew Carnegie - Industrialist
  Noel Coward - Playwright
  John Burroughs - Naturalist
  Bill Ridell - Newspaperman
  Will Rogers - Humorist
  Albert Schweitzer - Physician
  Tamara McKinney - World Cup Skier
  Jim Ryan - World Runner
  Ansel Adams - Photographer
  Charles Louis Montesquieu - philosopher
  John Stuart Mill - Economist
  John Paul Jones - father of the American Navy
  Florence Nightingale - nurse
  Clara Barton - started the Red Cross
  Abigail Adams - wife of John Adams
  Martha Washington - wife of George W.
  Constitutional Convention Delegates
  George Washington - 1st President of the U.S.
  James Madison - 4th President of the U.S.
  John Witherspoon - President of Princeton U.
  Benjamin Franklin - inventor and statesman
  William S. Johnson - President of Columbia C.
  George Clymer - U.S. Representative
  Charles Pickney III - Governor of S. Carolina
  John Francis Mercer - U.S. Representative
  George Wythe - Justice of Virginia High Court
  William Blount - U.S. Senator
  Richard D. Spaight - Governor of N. Carolina
  John Rutledge - Chief Justice U.S. Supr Court
  William Livingston - Governor of New Jersey
  Richard Basset - Governor of Delaware
  William Houston - lawyer
  William Few - U.S. Senator
  George Mason

 

I think that the "grading" issue is very relavent to the topic of unschooling!

The need to judge and grade one's work is an institutional need and not an individual one. Constructive criticism is a very different method of teaching and encouraging the learning process. Where grading points out error and measures one's knowledge in comparison to a set of norms, critic identifies errors and suggests alternate possibilities and ways to explore those possibilities.

Grading can be useful in a class of students, especially when the parent is in need of notification of how the student is progressing. In the home it is really not generally relavent to the learning process unless you have a student who has become motivated by the comparison/grading process. The typical (if there is such a thing) unschooled student is not motivated by grades, but may be motivated by some comparison with the national averages, or with siblings and friends. More often the unschooled student is motivated by their own thirst for knowledge and persuit of the interests that drive them to search for more information.

 

By the age of three?
Now that's a joke.
I go to public school, and when I was in the fifth grade there were kids who could barely read and were worse at math. I knew kids in the 7th grade that couldn't do fractions. And as for history? Half the kids in my high school probably couldn't tell you the difference between a democrat and a republican.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to say that they are behind. Because a good deal of public school kids just slide under the radar, never learning a thing. At least by homeschooling, those children and their parents will be aware of what they learn and what they need help with, instead of being ignored by teachers and just sliding by.