Do what you love! Let's make it happen, damnit!

again, thank you.

I must let people know that this is the kind of post that makes people realise that if people are working together, communicating and care enough to make a difference it can and will happen. This is the kind of conversation I have been yearning for on hipforums. If you read some of my other posts you will quickly realise that I am/was jaded with all the dreamers that never grow/evolve out of that stage. It's invigorating to see people that express their ideas so well(I seem to sound a little uncourteous when I read my posts).

Oldwolf is hit the nail on the head about the keeping in touch with the world. In MB, where I am, there is an older commune(20yrs) helping out a forming one(5yrs). they are meetings between the two and they share labor, ideas, songs and knowledge. When the selfsustainingsociety has land I hope to continue this sharing circle by joining the partnership. they help us with ex: animals, we help them with building techniques... or something of the sort. the communal families need to stick together.

to Ivory, thank you. just by reading your response I could feel that there was more that was planned than what was said, and am pleased. give people a little insight into you heart and it becomes much easier for them to see the big picture and wish to follow. the more people are informed the more I feel will chose to join you and not just decide to visit for a bit.

I continue to offer my moral support and know that I will always try to offer some constructive critism. Good luck, and keep us posted.

 

*gasp* This all so exciting! I can't begin to say how grateful I am for all the terrific responses... This is doing so much to get the creative juices flowing! Also, I am getting a feel for the breadth of the idea. There is so much I have to learn... But I am tickled pink that there are people who can help, and who are learning as well. *smile*
I believe I am lacking some serious knowledge about how best to organize something like this legally. I am not really sure what the options are, or what they mean when it comes to finding something for this particular communal situation to "be". I have some hard-core reading to do... Can anyone point me
somewhere to find comprehensive info on what Oldwolf was talking about... "There are several organizational modes any community can use - Co-Op, Collective, Inc., Corp., Np Org., partnerships..."

I would be great if I could get a synopses of what each of those things are...
I really like the idea of shares... When I was growing up my mom set up a chart on the wall for "Brownie Points". We did something good, we got a point that we could trade for stuff... I know that may sound a little childish but it gives me a visual. *I am a visual learner... if it weren't for scenarios and analogies I would be lost* I understand awarding a certain amount of "points" for time devoted, but where things get a little blurry for me is how to recompensate someone for assets that they brought in with them, and what about income they generate while they are "here"? I guess some of that could be answered if I knew exactly what the goals, purposes, plans of the group were... Again, I am thankful that I have all of you to talk it through with.
The lawyer info was very interesting, and is a good thing to know. It is a relative bummer having to get all "legalese", but I know that it's important for the security of everyone involved.
And to comment on "Number of Members"... I said once before that I count on starting out small, for many reasons. First and foremost it will be a big transition for everyone... The people joining and the people here. Second, I think it is easier to effectively provide for a smaller number of people in a "just out the door" situtation. And third... Space. We have a small three bedroom house that had seen WAY better days, and it is full of my family, but we are able to squeeze a little extra in when needed or wanted. We have the dog kennel... Really I ought to be saying "cinderblock building", and with a thing or two it would make an decent place for a few people to live while things got up and running. Camping out in tents is all fine and good in the summer time, but would be hard to do in the fall and winter months. The way I envision it going*very rough draft crafted by myself* is that a few people would come, live simply off of less while generating enough capital to start building a home(slip form masonry is the best bet I think, but still open to suggetion). When we had enough to begin, we could start building it, get it to a point where people can live in it, move some people in while continuing to finish it up and maybe let a couple more people take the new open slot. Kind of like musical chairs, only with living quarters. *haha*
I think we would have plans to build a complex of homes in an area... I guess that's considered a co-housing thing? We would start the first, and then keep working our way around as space is needed for people. Hmm... Just some thoughts. Please fell free to inject thoughts and ideas... This isn't only about what I have planned. *smile*
Gina... I agree! *Oldwolf, please keep the ideas coming. I don't know that we would ever not need it... A different perspective can do so much to help.* Let's definitely keep "knocking the ball around", we have so much to discover, and see who comes out of the woodwork. *smile* I am glad that you are so optimistic about our beginning... I am excited too! Even if it's just the two of us, it will be progress.
Oldwolf, Gina and SSS... Those last few posts came together just right. Yes! I feel too that part of the freedom of a communal living situation would be that you aren't tied down! I understand what you said completely, Oldwolf, about the nomad in you. And yes, I would love for whatever happens to grow here to be a place where others are welcome to come and learn and teach and grow and love.
Which makes me think of something else that has been tickling my brain for ages, although I hadn't yet connected it to my commune idea until now. I love the idea of apprenticeships. Someone learning a craft from another. A book is a good way to learn, but having somone show you and give you their wisdom and tips and tricks... It could help so many people, both the teacher and the student. Maybe there would be a way to incorporate a "craftsman(woman!*smile*) swap" of sorts into the whole communal web approach, similar to what SSS said. Share our strengths!
Gina, This I am putting here thinking especially of you, but for anyone else that might find the need to use it, feel free! blackberrylion@yahoo.com

 

Hi IvoryVision, it looks like you are on quite a roll.

To state my current intentions, I'm more or less sharing ideas with you. I'm not considering a move right now. I need more time in this rat race society to pay off a debt and put aside a safety net. Though I questiont the concept of a financial safety net from a hippie perspective.

It is great that you have an orchard. Fruit can bring in a nice income, and is very nutritious for us in general. I'm a bit of a fruitarian/rawfoodist, not just a veggie vegan. Also, the land that an orchard grow on can be used for dual puposed. It can be grazed, and windmills can reach up above the fruit trees to produce some green energy. There is a peach orchard like that about 20 minutes south of me. Windmills do cost though, and the investment would be high.

About having a vegetarian commune, I can see in your case how that might not be best. Being familiar with managing grazing animals, I can tell you that the acreage needed to feed a group might be quite high. One animal unit (1,000 lb. cow/1,200 lb. horse) requires 3-5 acres of good quality bermuda grass here on a year with average precipitation. I'm not sure about the stocking rates in your area. Goats are quite efficient, and so are rabbits and chickens. That being said, a vegetarian commune could have a few goats for weed management and pets, and have a few horses, donkeys, and oxen for pulling and transportation. These are just some of my views. They need not be concerns of yours for the commune that you are proposing. I just have a big interest in land management. I do want to learn more about the productivity of humans using hand tools in gardens.

I wonder:
Could one human feed 7 adults
One team of draft animals feed 21 adults
One 50 + hp tractor feed 90 adults

Those numbers are random, but possibly close. I do know that modern farmers with tractors feed about 90+ people. I'm not into fossil fuel burning technology. I like my solar powered animal friends and working human buddies. Draft animals produce offspring for replacement, expansion, or sale for profit.

I have a very interesting article on the economics of it.

Anyway, no-till farming and gardening doesn't require as much tillage or labor, but disk can still be used to kill the cover crop to form mulch. Also some light tillage may be needed. Tranporting crops and moving hay is another consideration.

You may be interested in learing about scythes. Yes, the old hand held blades. Modern ones are produced and can be very efficient for certain applications.

I'm getting a bit far off into farming methods, but we all know that food and income production are important.

 

I thought it might be nice to give you some idea of my values and ways. IvoryVision I am also an omnivore, eating mostly chicken, fish and eggs. If one listens to me speak or observes my ways they will see strains of Buddhism in my life, although I am not a follower of any one religion. I believe life is contradictons and with that being said, I like my autonomy while I also value closeness with others. I am a firm believer in free-will. I do not impose my thoughts or feelings on others and I accept people for who they are. I am somewhat familiar with group dynamics and understand that when people get together in any environment we take on roles, it is inevitable and cannot be avoided. I feel the best way to make these dynamics work in a harmonious way is for there to be continuous dialogue and alot of communication and again, acceptance of differences. I have a tendency to just enjoy the process of things, appreciating things just for the sake of the experience, so there are times I need someone to remind me of the bigger picture. I do not do drugs, I do not smoke, I have the occasional drink. The only issue with any of those for me is how the other's behavior impacts the group. Words are so limiting in describing one's Way, but I hope this gives you a glimpse of me.

As this becomes more real I've got a flow of ideas and questions so I'm gonna just put them out there. Basically what your starting out with is the land. And like you said IvoryVision there are two things that need to be focused on to begin with: building homes and generating income. Both of which require what SelfSustainingSociety said would be the two most important things: People & money. Would you and I (well actually I know I would LOL but...)need assistance actually building the home or once we had the materials you would be able to guide us through? Again I've never done this, but I'm defintely up for the work. I only ask so that we have a good beginning in our minds. Do we need materials or are most of the things we need (tools, wood, rocks, etc) there on your property? As per generating income, you would need to tell me where we could market our goods. I suppose we can find local markets for our crafts (jewelry and such). It will be a process of making the crafts, selling the crafts and alternating our time with building. If there are more people, we would be able to do both at the same time, but this is assuming it is just you and I to begin with. As we sell the crafts, we reimburse ourselves for the cost of the the supplies to make them and then the rest would go into the communal pot..so we can continue building the basics. I assume the tallying of time for shares is what is compensated for these goods. We can flesh that out as others guide us more properly. But IvoryVision, is it difficult to get to these markets to sell our crafts? I'm sure I'm sounding quite naive about this whole process, so any input is appreciated. I guess it helps to go from the general to the specific here on the boards so we can chisel out a plan together. In terms of the formality of forming a legal Nonprofit I can share in reading up on it. If you go to some of Oldwolfs posts...specifically where he describes the structure and the rules of his community...it could give us a springboard for ideas. I'm gonna send you a private email with my phone number, feel free to call. If long distance is an issue I have an all inclusive plan, so I do not mind making the call. But I feel since we are both very new to this, posting is a good idea because we would provide other newbies with an additional thread about our process and we would be able to get support from the more experienced. If this is an inappropriate use of the boards please let me know.

 

a bit more incoherent babblings lol :

Hollow community attempt.
http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2917
is the thread outlining a lot of what was seen as desirable - put together about..... geez 8 yrs ago - guess what - some things Change.
I always suggest that any one who expresses interest find out more about the people from their own words - luckily we (oldwolf, oldcrone, moving Cloud) have been on these boards from almost their inception so their is a lot of material - maybe boring or too repetitive - I strive not to be that predictable - but my fire has always been in Spirit and being true to Self - Connecting beyond the ego into the overSelf/godSelf - Been hammering away at it and going through my Changes with that striving being my constant and my fire - so I do recognize that to some I seem to be saying the same things over and over.

One of the joys of having others involved is that we don't have to go it alone - god knows there is so much that you feel you ought to know before starting that you'd never start if you waited till you knew it all. The most - both qualitative and quantitative source for all knowledge is experience - and when you finally start Doing - in looking back you'll See many ways that you would do it different in the next Now.

Yeah - and if we let ourselves we can Grow wiser with experience - attachment becomes one of the biggest things you gotto let go of. - let it instead of being locked into only this way.

There are so many choices - we can get lost in just looking at them and never make a one.

What makes me so ecstatic about this - is that there's an energy of Doing in this - not just wishful thinking.

Yah - I'm doing in this Now........- when I raised my children (mostly single parenting) this concept was on the back burner (survival and trying to give them what I, had accepted from old programs of my youth, thought children needed - being then on the front) although it had been previously on the front and been inacted more than once. Ahh the joy of being older huh ?
Yeah been there done that ....-
Some of the knowledge I've gleaned over the years is out of date - much of it incomplete. The seeds are there but they must be cultivated.

Putting a lot of my energy and time into Doing still and so do not have the time to surf the web and come up with a lot of these things - the why a friendly lawyer type would be a god send - but even though i know it's not true - sometime lawyer and friendly don't seem to go together - much the same as humble and doctor do not -(ever hear a doctor profess ignorance - think it's against the code they swore to in secret) - old programs - the times have changed and we ned to change with them - .....

the internet : I'm pretty sure we have a tool that will help us find almost anything - sometimes we just need to ask it the appropriate question in the appropriate format - - and i suppose that could take some more time - that we all have so much to give - Not.

One of the things I hold dear is that I'll generally drop almost anything for honest communication - even that I qualify twice.

Been kicking around for a good bit and have lots of bits and pieces - should I be able to help, I might be able to point you in some directions - but I cannot give you a recipe that's fool proof - i've been the fool proving that heheh.

Will give you a usually not too wordy reply on any question and tell you if I don;t have a clue - but as i said alot of my information is incomplete.

Ahh the Blessings along the Way - Lessons we learn from

Namaste

 

Argh! No time! Just popped in to see what was being said and I am itching to answer the questions and jot down some ideas, but it will have to wait until much later tonight I am sure... I am so glad for the great questions and wonderful ideas! Please, if anyone has any more questions, anything that could use some clarification, any suggestions go ahead and put them out there... I love how they "turn over the stones", they help us find out so much. Until later!
~*Chrissy

 

Okay! Here I am, ready to tear into some stuff!

RawAndNatural... I greatly appreciate your contributions to the thread, even if you have you own stuff going on. What you have to say about efficiency/land management is very interesting. We play it by ear around here, but sometimes I wonder what it all really breaks down to in numbers. While the subject of lifestock and animals and all that jazz is open, I will let you all know what we have going on with it right now...

We currently have three cows. One dairy cow, who gives us oodles of milk... Right now about two gallons a day, which is more than we can use. Alot ends up down the chickens, dogs, or cats. We have one beef cow... She is kind of like our meat machine. We eat her babies. In February she had a bull-calf who we are keeping for awhile. He is a really good quality cow, and we want to breed him to Sasha(our milker) before we butcher him, but we might end up keeping him a little longer than that... He's a good cow. NOTE ABOUT COWS: We can conceivably fit one or two more cows on the property without feeding them getting a little hairy(right now they are completely free-range). Really, we need another calf to fill the freezer space since SnowBiscuit(the bullcalf) isn't going in there. We were thinking aobut getting another one... But we might just wait(we think Sasha is preggers, and maybe Butterbutt*beef cow* too).
We have three pain in the tush pygmy goats, two males and a female. All they are good for is eating weeds and getting loose and eating up all the chicken feed. *haha* NOTE ON GOATS: We have raised a large herd of dairy goats before, many years ago. When it comes to milk, I prefer cows all around. Goats are testy, have itty bitty teets(so hard to milk!), are harder to keep track of, and did I mention testy? Cow milk gives you more for the effort, plus cream for butter and ice cream and such. I'm not ruling out goats by any measure(they are beautiful animals, and their babies are the cutest baby animals ever to live!), but I'm letting you know how I feel. When it comes to space, they fit in quite nicely among the cows. When I was young we had quite a few cows, and oodles of goats.
We have ALOT of chickens(more due to hatch tomorrow, by the way!)... They provide plenty of eggs(which we have been known to sell for a pretty penny, but after a killing spree by the new neighbor dogs*ARGH* our hen population went down and we keep most of our eggs for home use), as well as meat. We have a large coop(used to be a garage long long ago), but these days we let them roam. Nothing like free range eggs, so healthy! Other poultry... Guineas. Lots of 'em. You know... The football shaped, polka dotted, loud as heck, even uglier birds that eat lots of bugs. That's exactly what we have them for. You won't find a tick, chigger, large grasshopper, (the list goes on), anywhere near our house. They keep the snakes down too. They eat the baby snakes. Only thing they don't get is the flies. NOTE ON POULTRY: We have tried ducks and geese, but we always get attatched... Too darn cute to eat. Also, if you want them to be free, they make an awful mess. Their poops are gihugic(REALLY BIG), and they always want to camp out on the porch. So we gave them away. We do want to get into turkeys. That is another thing we have tried, that works great. They grow really fast, get really big, and are really cheap to feed. We got a 54 pound turkey(dressed!) one year on nothing but cow milk(free) and shorts(wheat meal-cheap), and letting him roam the orchard.
Pigs... We are eating the last of three pigs that we had. Pigs are great, but require a little more upkeep than other animals. We had a hard time keeping them where they belonged. They got free when they were young, and we just couldn't catch them back up. They roamed all over, hassled the neighbors a few times(nothing too bad, just running through their pasture) and then they learned to stay home. They roamed free eating free range... Acorns, wild fruit, grass, roots... The meat was awesome! The only problem with free range pigs is that while they are smart and learn to stay home eventually, they do some serious damage to the property. They skinned alot of one of our grazing pastures. It grew back alright enough this year, but it is new very lumpy out there. If we want pigs again, it is going to take a well thought out plan, and a damn good fence.
Horses... We have never done horses. Don't really know why. Probably that we didn't have time with all the other projects for a horse. I feel like forty acres isn't enough space as well. Horses are too beautiful to box up too tightly, I think.
Um... I mentioned the dogs in another post... They are getting old for thier breed, and I think we want to sell them, or give them away to good homes. We also have some farm cats(my two pampered once-house kitties live here too, and they love it). If anyone has pet friends, we would have to make sure they are spayed and neutered... We have had problems with a sister of mine being a "pet collector", leaving us with lots of pets that neither she nor we could afford to take care of. It's my view that pets are family members, not baby factories, and that they are happier if they don't have to worry about some instinctual urge driving them nuts to hump and make babies, only to have them taken away later.

On Farming: My family is a big bunch of green thumbs. We used to put out HUGE gardens(all organic all the time), but now that there are less hands around to help, they are much smaller. The climate here is suited to a giant variety, and I am of a mind to try some of the warmer weather crops here what with all the changes in the weather. Equipment is something of a problem. We have a tiller but it hasn't worked in a while, and since we have less a need to use it we haven't spent the extra dough on taking it to get looked at. Now we use the Elbow Grease 3000 model. *haha* Funny that you mention a scythe... I wash wishing desperately for one last fall when I broke down, by hand, about an acre of woody weeds in our orchard. We have a barn, but it is in need of lots of help. That or a hand grenade. *BWAHAHA* It sits by the place where we usually put out our garden( I really need to take some more pictures of things and put them up here). We have some other out buildings, in about the same condition as the barn.

BrooklynGal... I have been looking forward to answering these all day. But first I want to comment on what you said at the beginning of your last post. A glimpse of you is lovely. I think as we continue to throw ideas around, our personalities will begin to really shine outward, but I love that you gave us a place to start. I will respond about myself following your lead. I am an omnivore, of course... I eat lots of whatever we have around. Eggs, dairy products, home raised pork and chicken. I think if I had to rely on the grocery store for my meat and dairy, I would be a vegetarian... But I know that my animals are happy and loved and respected, and when it comes time for them to do their part, I know they have had a great life. Spiritually, I am an Amalgamationist. *wink* In my time I have looked into many, and drawn out what speaks to my heart. I learn more every day. I respect everyones faith, and hope that everyone has some. I am a person who is comfortable in my own skin. Being by myself suits me... But being alone doesn't, if you can dig it. I crave the understanding and support of others who believe. I am open minded, but that doesn't mean there aren't things that I stand up for. Free will is precious, and I wouldn't want to rob anyone of that, ever. My word on groups and roles mirrors Ginas very closely... As long as there is openness and honesty and willingness then things will work out. I tend to be scatterbrained... Sometimes I put the cart before the horse. Linear thinking isn't my specialty, and I do things out of order. Someone want to remind me that the alphabet starts with A and not Z? Drugs? I don't do drugs... I enjoy my connections to God. I am horrified by people who abuse this right, people who don't respect it's power or purpose. I do not consider man made poisons among God's gifts. I don't use tobacco. I drink occasionally. I am also horrified by people who use these things so much that it is a detriment to themselves and others. I believe that moderation, caution, discretion, and responsibility are key when it comes to such things.

And now for those meaty questions... People and money. Yes, we will be needing both of those things. Thankfully, we have shelter and the ability to produce food, so will not be starting at ground zero. That means, if we had only you and I to begin with, that we WOULD be able to start building as soon as we got the money, which might take a while, though. The kind of house I am talking about(Slip-Form Masonry) is terribly simple in to do. Peasants with the equivalent of a sixth grade education did something similar long ago and the results are still standing today in many cases(castles!). Once we have a design(we don't need anything too fancy, so could probably get by without needing "professional" help on that, only some good thorough books) we could get to work... The only thing we would need done for us in the beginning is the foundation poured. It is very labor intensive... Working with concrete and rocks, but not difficult. On the link I listed on my first post in this thread has a story about a woman(yes!) who built a large portion of her home by herself with a little help from her elderly father. The assets required to build we already have alot of. Stone is free, ours to pick up, and in another post I spoke a little about how to get more for free if we ran out here. Also, reinforcing material could be acquired cheaply to supplement and help lower the cost of rebar. The simplest things we would need to begin a slipform home(aside from the foundation*hah*) would be concrete, rebar, and a small cement mixer(could be done by hand, but it's much more efficient with a mixer), and wood for the slip-frames. Of course, it would go much faster with more people and more money, but that is yet to be seen. I am new to slipform building as well, but it is simple. I am reading up on it, and am positive that we can make it work. The peasants did! *wink*

Again, you are right on the money! Until we had enough people to divide the force between earning and building, it would be a matter of alternating. Markets for our goods... We would have to be multi-taskers. When it came to produce, we would sell it at the local growers mart(small), take it to growers marts out of town(Springfield, Missouri is the closest really big city*where we wouldn't already have lots of local competition*, about an hour away, sounds far but isn't bad to go once a week... Think of it as a supply run!*smile*), and to local restraunts as well as restaurants out of town(more towns, closer than Springfield as well as ones in Springfield... I know that local farmers are NOT tapping the restraunt resource, but we will!). Oh... And don't forget about Branson, Missouri. It is nearly two hours away, but worth the drive for marketing potential. To anyone who doesn't know, I suggest you look into it, search Branson Mo on any search engine, and when you get past the Andy Williams honkey tonk crap, there is a Gigantic market there for handcrafted goods... But I am getting beyong produce... Let me back up. When it comes to things like jewelry, clothing, artwork, furniture, ect. ect.(what do all of YOU do?*smile*) we just do the same thing that we did with our produce with exceptions and additions. It boils down to having a head for creative marketing and taking advantage of resources that others don't think of. We go to boutiques, gift shops, flea markets, strip malls, head shops, healthfood stores(can you think of more?) and make deals/arrangements with them to sell our products through them. They buy wholesale, or we give them percentages... Whatever we think of that makes sense. In the case of Branson, we could rent a booth in one of their many antique/craft malls. Or we could rent a kiosk in the mall(Springfield) and put our more "youth friendly" wares there. We could even go so far as to make trips to St. Louis periodically and unload some of our products there(huge possibilities). And we could build a website. The limit is our imagination and gas money*haha*. *While I am thinking about gas money, this is a reminder for me to talk about waste vegetable oil deisel cars some other time... I am gettin one eventually!* Yes... We reimburse supplies, expand as much as we can handle, maybe put a little into advertising. (It's important, I believe, to make as much dough a we comfortably can in the beginning to keep things moving forward at a nice pace.) Then the rest would go to the "communal pot" to keep our world turning. Right... Thanks for saying it a little different Gina... Rewording it made it make sense to me*about the shares thing*... We'll work more on that later.
Whew... I'm pooped!
Oldwolf... Thankyou so much for the link... I have alot of reading to do, learning from people before me. Having a good place to start when doing such a thing is invaluble. I can't express how thankful I am that you have jumped in on this and given us the words that you have. We never stop learning, and while none us will learn everything, we can share and learn more. And who better to share with than someone who has already fought the fights, cried the tears, and enjoyed the some of the fruits of those things? You have years on us, friend, and we thank you for being so generous with the wisdom you have gathered in them!
Off to take a cold bath(no hot showers here... we have decided to boycott gas in a round about way) and then off to bed with me. Can't wait to see what is on here in the morning!
Many thanks to all who bear with me and read these long things! ~*Christine

 

I'm gonna say something that oft gets me in trouble with many of the idealist here.
The first few people are VERY important to how well you learn to fly and whether you get off the ground or not. Any person with whom you do not feel YES to - a strong affirmative - make sure that they do a work visit before they move in.
Do not let your soft feelings allow you to bring in people with whom you sense warnings from within yourselves .
I see alot of attempts stay attempts only and disperse because they try to solicite people to join, and are not careful with whom they open their space to - quality is much more important than quantity.
Harmony is the most important quality that community brings to the participants - people must resonate with each other.
That does not mean to avoid challenges - if everything is brought out in the open with honesty and caring hearts resolutions are usually not impossible to come by.
Nuff said .

Do not know whether you have a pond or not - if it's feasible and you do not , might be good to create one - for fish, irrigation, and cooling down and fun.
I have been approached by resteraunters who look for fresh organic fish, poultry, & eggs (esp range fed) and are especially interested in fresh culinary herbs that they can brag on being organic to their customers. Course range fed beef is always great too, but there are a lot of people doing that now - let's put them feedlots/slaughterhouses out of bussiness - wow what a stink.
Green houses are great and almost a must as well - earth bermed or dug into the ground 5 ' deep helps lower heating costs - a little mass (barrels of water, stone, earth) retains a good bit of heat from southern exposure, the rest can be had from a wood stove.
You have all the ingredients for wonderful biomass - you can put the mass (shit & carbon material [leaves straw dried clippings chipped wood etc]) in a plastic 55 gal drum (airtight) - add water put a valve stem in and fill a truck tube full of methane - for outdoor burners and even vehicular use (farmers did it during WW II ) - Plus you get the natural fertalizers for gardening.

I've helped on farms when young but never farmed - gardens yes - don't even think I agree with the mormal plowing routine usually used in farming. So you probably have much more knowledge and experience on both the farming and animal husbandry - I'll be coming to you all for your experiences down the road.

poor_old_dad (forum member) lives in central Al and has done organic produce for markets - he's usually open to sharing. He's been a bit scarce lately but is a wonderful person and resource. try PMing him or email. It would be nice to see him sharing with us again.

Go for it !

Blessings along your Way

Namaste

 

Mornin' Christine & All!

Wow, you answered so many things I hadn't even thought about. You really got your mind going with this...great! I'm sittin' here sippin' my coffee, reading all about your surroundings....roaming animals, orchards, greenery, barns...images are dancin' in my head...almost wish I was there now! I look out my 3rd floor apartment window, and I see a few trees rowed down the block, surrounded by lotsa cement and cars, cars, cars...lol. I actually live on a pretty block here in Brooklyn (of course this is relative), but the biggest response I get from people who visit from other places is "it's soooooooo crowded!" Anywho...onward about our castles in Missouri...

Slip-form masonry...okay I'll do a search online and do some reading too. If you only knew how clueless I was about all this stuff, you would roll on the floor laughing. Just to see my face reading it is funny. I thought I was a strong woman here because I put in my own air conditioner this summer and once put in my own door locks! I am completely fascinated by all this that I will be doing and even with my naivete, I think my ability to learn and pick up quickly will amaze not only myself, but you too. And we'll definitly get some laughs outta it! It seems as though you have it covered on the livestock and farming front. So our first investment is officially the Elbow Greese 3000 model....LOL. That was funny!
I guess we'll keep sharing thoughts and images here on the boards. The wise OldWolf mentioned that things must resonate positively within in us and I agree. So far they do for me. What first resonated with me from your initial post was a really good vibe. I wasn't sure how we could help out your dad, but I appreciated your honesty about the situation, as you said "in all it's ugliness". Your mention of doing what we love, made me think of all the various crafts I do for fun, that I never really consider I can invest time with. Even as I considered living a communal lifestyle, I thought more about using my hands with the earth and such...but it was nice to also think about including things I know and love too. I could feel your energy to build this life for yourself and others and it struck a chord in me. As we move along in our thoughts here, I'm hoping we can gather together in person.

Oh and by the way, did I mention that I'm an incredible Italian cook...ok well...I'm an incredible Italian cook. I make a mean baked ziti, as well as chicken parm. and eggplant parm dishes (not as good as my grandmothers tho ). Hopefully we can share this together with some vino, some stories and many smiles sometime soon.
Peace~
Gina

 

heya Gina,

strange question here - you ever been out of the city ?
I ask because we've seen cases of real culture shock from people coming to the hollow.
Even people who had some experience with the country were taken off guard by the isolation and totally natural surrounding in the hollow - sometimes it's hard to tell that within easy walking distance you come back to our regular "unnatural" world.

It's important that we respect other people - including the areas that need work -- lord knows I sure appreciate when others allow me some leeway.

Just thinking of the city (shudder - yeah but I have lived in several) and a couple of our visitors who definitely showed signs of discomfort and fear - being out of their known environment.

And Gina - or any one else - we do welcome others - one of the strengths of the hollow is that it helps people See themselves and bring about Change from within - should they so desire. Soon as I get off the shackles i brought on myself by over-extending financially I hope to do some visiting of my own. Most of us seeking a life of inner fulfilment have the welcome mat out and enjoy sharing the warmth and comraderie of people of likemindedness.

 

OldWolf~

Not a strange question at all! Actually it's one everyone I know has been asking me, in not-so-subtle ways....."Are you crazy?" My answer : yes (LOL) "Do you know what you're getting yourself into?" My answer: No. And some more goodies, but I won't go on I think you get the point. I have never lived outside of NYC. I know I can see the faces of those who have acres and acres around them and the contrast of city life, I understand it does bring about concern. So please excuse my long-winded response here, but I feel the need to share where I am coming from with it all.

I have no doubt that there will be culture shock. I have no doubt that I will get through it, as with most things, a changed person. Not good, not bad, just changed. I have gone the journey inward (and will continue) through meditation, through spirituality coming out with a greater acceptance of who I am (limitations and all). I am coming to this journey with a good sense of myself and this will create a buffer against the shock. I need to continue the outward journey. I have in my heart for years now the desire to live this life...communally, living off the land, getting back to the basics. Friends have heard me speak of this, over and over and over again, to the point that one finally asked "so when you gonna live the dream huh? I've heard you talk this sh** forever now. Do it or dream it..which one?" I don't think he thought I'd ever actually, actualize it. I did not know where to begin. For the last year I had been doing google searches looking for communities in the United States. I do not know what I was typing in, but nothing was coming up. I knew they were out there I just couldn't find a way to find them! Somehow I typed in the right thing recently and boom popped up the Hippie Forums. I was beyond ecstatic when I got to the Communal Living Forums. Read many, many posts (many of yours) and stumbled upon the link to the IC directory. Whoah to my wonder how many communities actually exist! Beyond ecstasy for me. And although I consider myself a freespirit, others would probably laugh at my planning this path. I'm trying to do it with a balanced approach. Meaning, I can't just pick up and leave, I need to prep myself for the journey, but from here it's all open. I accept the fear, I accept the joy and I have few expectations other than to live it. I must say I really have no other goal than that, to just live it. I know this sounds naive, but I feel safe in it none-the-less. Family and friends think I'm insane, and rightly so, insanity is needed for any kind of sanity in this world. And so here I am, reaching out to you and others. Hoping I make my way to the Hollow to just live some time with you, even if briefly. I very much connect to your energy OldWolf, and although your location can bring some bitter days, at some point I must share with it in the flesh. I'm just getting through the summer with lotsa work here, but I'll be venturing out for visiting sometime in Sept. or Oct. Perhaps I can visit the Hollow sometime then and we can also share some smiles. And you can get a laugh outta my "culture shock"...I'm sure you will see it in my eyes and spirit as they both open widely.
Peace & Blessings to you!
Gina

 

Gina,

Never was it a criticism - more to others, not yourself. - I rely more than I usually let out of the bag on intuition and felt that this was something you already were prepared/preparing for - felt how it was calling to you.

Some are truly freed when they join with Nature - others find that they are not ready to face the intense love - for we come face to face with Self - for we Are All Connected - and no part is more or less than another - we are all part of the Whole, A wandrous shining facet in the gem of Existenc.

I truly hope you can visit - I feel it will be a good thing - and i am not trying to get you to stay here - I feel your place is more in the Ozarks - not that you are not welcome - we welcome all and let synchronicity and the hollow; the resonance and harmony - form what becomes. The primary function we See for ourSelfs right Now in this setting, Working with the Hollow and Gaia, is to provide a place for those seeking to find and focus on their vision of Who and What they Are.

We will not keep you here and are far more for the empowerment of the individual to ever stand in the Way of anyone's choices and the lessons they draw for their learning and Growth. If you feel it might be right for you to visit - we will pick you up in Bath or Dansville if you are coming by bus; or at Elmira/Corning or Rochester or Syracuse airports - whichever is most cost-effective for you. We do have places that are not rough living - excluding when winter spreads her mantle and tenderly shuts us in more and holds us to her bossom -- heheh yeah we here wax a wee bit fey and poetic and hold to non-exclusivness, honoring all paths to Wholeness.

Our next time of invitation to a Gathering for all is the full moon weekend of Oct 7 & 8 (full moon nearest the equinox) - some come a bit earlier, and some stay a little longer. This is a time when the fall foliage should be at its peak and the bugs are not so plentiful, and the weather is usually most friendly.

Blessings Be to all as we Open to ourSelfs

 

Oldwolf~
I just re-read my response. (blush, blush) I'm embarassed. My response had way less to do with you, than myself. As I'm sure you could hear, I've been responding to the reservations of others and I suppose it spilt out over here. Oops...Ouch!
Thank you for the invite. I will take you up on that the beginning of October. I will most likely be coming by bus. But then again that time of year, like you said, provides good scenery, a drive might be nice. So I might rent a car and drive on up, if so I'll be happy to pick up folk along the path.

Thanks for your warmth OldWolf.

Gina

 

Mornin' all~

All my googling searches this morning were successful!

This is a link to a gov't public. about starting a cooperative (at the end of it are legal documents for formation):

http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/rbs/pub/cir7/cir7.pdf

These two are links for worker cooperative forums/groups (*The Yahoo group requires accepted membership, mine is still pending...La Di DA):

http://www.nabble.com/Worker-Cooperative-f6.html

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/workercoop/

Hope this helps.

 

Now to catch up! *smile* Oldwolf... You're right about that. It's crucial that the people involved be able to live harmoniously. I think it has alot to do with trusting your intuition... You have to listen to those gut feelings that say someone is or isn't a certain way, and figure out what those feelings could mean in a long term situation. While I am looking for people who share my ideas and thoughts, this is my home and I have got to do what I feel is best for this place that I hold dear to my heart, my family, and my dreams... And that requires me to have a certain scrutiny of people's intentions in the beginning. I look forward to the day when there will be more "Family Members" to share the "process"*if you can even call it that* with. And to a point I already do... While my family is still up in the air about the idea, if my Dad gave me the go ahead, I would still have to take into consideration the kind of people that would get along with them, not just myself.
I have been procrastinating. Re-pitching the idea to my Dad is looming over my head. Mostly, I think, due to the fact that I don't know exactly what it all boils down too. And I know that I can't know all of that, not exactly, but it's hard to take something so important to me to someone who might stike my idea from the face of the planet just because I don't have all my facts straight. ARGH! *smile* I'm not saying that he would do that, but the possiblity is not to far out that he might... He has been stuck so deeply and so long in his current funk, that change is hard for him to cope with. So, bear with me all while I align things in my mind and gather up my guts.
So still laying out ideas while I am in that process...
We do have a pond... Three in fact, but they all three need some rehabilitation. The pond nearest our house is FULL is waterlillies(absolutely gorgeous in early summer and beautiful the rest of the summer and fall), but beneath that is basically a giant mud puddle. Lots of silt and dirt have filled it up over the last few years. We dug it out by hand once, trying to repair what might have gone wrong with it(it also doesn't hold water well), but it was full of mud again in a few years. We resigned ourself to it being a very pretty mud puddle and a home for the frogs. Our second pond... It is very big and would be great for fish, if only we could get a back hoe or something like that to dig it out a bit more. We think it has a leak... It dried up some time ago, just a bit of sludge at the bottom is all that's left. And the last pond, which happens to sit very near where I want to build, is just like the first pond, minus the water lillies. I don't think it was planned well, it doesn't really have any place to collect water from... It's too flat I think.
I definitely have plans for a greenhouse... I was thinking of either building it first using slipform masonry(as practice for the house) or building it into the plans of the house, one more barrier between it(the house) and the weather.
I read an article on methand production a while back, and it seemed to me like you had to have tons(literally) of biomass to be able to produce methane in any appreciable quantities. That and it would be hard to collect poo to put in there... The cows drop it all over the pasture. *haha* We use chicken and goat dooky(they hang out in the coop where it is easy to collect their manure) for all our gardening needs.
*smile* I am still learning "animal husbandry"("Hey, Mom! The neghbor bull is humping Butterbutt!"*haha*), but I would love to share all I can with you. Gardening is my forte, ask all you want!
Gina... Wow. You have some great stuff to say, and you are very brave. So many people get stuck inside the box they create for themselves, and live one thing their entire lives. You are not only stepping out of your box, you are going at it with a jack hammer. I understand how hard it can be to get up the gumption to do something, especially if you are unsure of what may happen and everything is new(read again my paragraph on procrastination*smile*). I applaud you for even saying it. When I verbalize something, it seems to me like my heart commits to it even if my brain fights back, and if I don't do it then I am only breaking a promise to myself. So in the past I would avoid saying to anyone what my thoughts were, so that if I chickened out, at least I didn't say it out loud and dissappoint myself or anyone else. You have come so far! You are way beyond chickening out. You have dedicated your heart and mind to growing out, over, under, and through and that takes immeasurable strength.
Like Oldwolf said, the natural world and life are awe inspiring, but can be very overwhelming. You will have some shock... It doesn't matter what kind you have, it is gonna be there... But you are strong. Inside of you is something that has been talking to you for a long time about getting into the dirt and getting away from a silly society. When you get to the dirt, the rest of you on the outside might "flip out" a little(bugs poop more bugs more poop sweat aching muscles more poop crop failure sick animals more poop and more fricken bugs) but it's just fine. When I came back from living in California, and then Nashville, I flipped out a little, and I grew up here. It just took a little while for that little voice inside of me telling me that I missed this place and what it represents to dig it's way to the surface of all the fake ideas and fake wants and fake needs that living in the "real world" had layered on me. When you feel most like you can't handle it, that sweet voice of reason(your inner Italian farmer girl of days gone by, maybe*smile*) will come all the way to the surface and give you strength, and remind you that this is what living is all about.
You are doing everything just the way it needs to be done for you, and again, I applaud you. You're a smart woman. Things will definitely be very new for you, but I look forward to helping you learn, and I know that you will teach me some wonderful things as well.
Wowza! I adore Italian food, the more authentic the better! That's just where we will start your education of me... *haha* I love to cook, and I love to eat. Hooray! We will have to grow eggplant. *smile*
Thanks for the links, Gina... I'll get to reading them as soon as I can. I have to say though that, in the beginning stages, I would be much more comfortable taking a more informal approach to organizing the commune. I think with all the change that will be happening quickly, and the ideas for the "ultimate mission" coming together slowly, that we would be getting ahead of ourselves to cram ourselves into a classification and try to follow all the rules. I think that numbers will be so small to start out with that we could function really well without having to jump into anything too desisive. That being said, I think that when things do get rolling, that it would be best not too get too caught up in the "business" of it. Of course, I want this to be a smoothly functioning enterprise... We make money, we expand our horizons, we grow. But I don't want ever to be so worried about adhereing to some governement rule that undue tension and stress is created and change is limited. When I say that I have visions of a Big Family, I mean just that. I dream of people who love to live together, support eachother, share experiences and do what it takes to be happy together. I think that when it comes to what we "are" or what we will "be"... I like to think of it as a Family Owned Small Business. We handle our own rules and politics among ourselves, and keep our "business" going for the rest of the world to enjoy. I hesitate to label this under some predefined notion like a Co-Op, or a Corporation, or any of that. I believe that as long as we pay our taxes, handle our "small businesses" well, and have an agreement among ourselves as to what to do if someone wants out, something that would hold up legally that a person would be compensated for their time and effort should they choose to go, then everything else would be gravy. Maybe that sounds a little too simple, but I don't see any reason why it should be any harder. Later, if need be, we might choose a direction to take that can be recognized easily by others. I just have faith that we won't need to. This is about getting away from a world that is "law"ing itself to death, stealing our precious time, and forcing silly ideas upon us. I apologize if I have stood on my soapbox and ranted a bit, but I feel very strongly about love and understanding being what holds this all together, not a set of rules that would disqualify us as a group or any individual if they want to do what they love free from imposed limits. I hope this all makes sense, and that all of you can feel the vibe I am talking about. I wouldn't mind debating a bit the pros and cons of trying to adopt a government defined shape for this dream-all neat and tidy and ready to follow- or stumbling through and making this for ourselves, but I don't know if my heart would give up the family approach. We are all smart people... Who says that we can't do it our way? *smile*

 

Heya Ivoryvision,

Life is allways full of change - and until it has happened anything is possible. There is no need to jump into anything - we also have not formalized anything legally yet - we sometimes think it's time to at least get the legal end down - most everything already put to words can be read at the link I gave you to the land thread in the first 3 posts of it, and most is pretty inclusive amd malleable - on purpose. As you get your core group - usually at least 5 >7 people - who are willing to commit to hard intensive constant continual group effort - that is the time when ,as you work together, you all can hash out what , as a group, you all feel you are striving for as a community.
I mentioned somewhere that I have been through this process - several times - some with extant communities, some just with groups that never even got the land. The people often rotate out to another 'more appropriats' or seeming more what they might want, effort - this is natural and good; but the core group will be friends for life - even if you do not see them for years they become permanent residents of your heart - like family should be (too many are not). This core group will give totally of themselves and very often be willing to go on to the next herculean task when the goals are accomplished - often after it's built more come in and suddenly the energy is not what it was with the core group and the core group often then fragments - it is at that point that the structure must be in place to carry those through who were not committed to building the vision but came because it was already in place.
I do not have a problem with the cycle - though many do. There are Doers and those that carry on - those that carry on need to have some sort of framework and example of the what they carry forward and these people usually are the ones that actually make the community work - because they become the majority residents.

Becauseof this scenario which I've seen repeated over and over - you may not wish something that is primarily earmarked for family to be made an entity which may take the bit in the teeth and go where you do not- and are not willing to have it go .
To that end you also need to protect yourselves - and this your dad may be readily able to support. Put together some sort of trust type of agreement keeping it open to family members even if others have that family status extended to them. That way it cannot be taken away from the family.

I am not going that route - I am giving up those rights - those that live on the land decide - with the umbrella Co-Op having the rights to buy back the shares and use the land for whatever purpose they decide should the community fracture and desintegrate and leave.
My own shares will be bought out by the Co-Op and be seed for yet another 'sprout' and eventually there will be many places us wanderers can go to and call home because the love and open door and hearts are present at each location. When I pass on everything goes to the Co-Op to continue the Work - of helping us all Grow and Be more Aware beings open to becoming yet more and moving through the Changes into the Beyond. But this is my own and my own family already knows of it.
Personally I do not really agree with inheritance - we are owed nothing. What we do and Become is ours when we pass on, what we accumulated in the process is no longer ours - being as it never really was - we borrow from the Earth for our substance and form - We Are spirit though some identify more with the physical temporary form we borrow from the earth.

Each must find within from their own well font, a truth to live by, and in the living of your truth, it is part of the process that we change and move on - we die. On to the next adventure. This Is what life is - Existence encompasses life and is more than life for it has continuity but is not linear and most have a difficulty trying to force it into that mold.

Acch - sorry bout that some times I get carried away

Be true to your Selfs - and all else synchronicity will show the way as choices are put in front of you and you decide by your choices what lessons you need to focus on to learn and Grow

Yee hah go for it
Blessings along your Way

Namaste

 

Hey Christine~

I know that after reading that gov't stuff, it really takes the heart out of it all. It seems as though their hands need to be in everything huh. I do feel your heart in it all, I really do and I hear your dad's fear too. Like I said in my email, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be. We'll discover soon enough what the universe has in store for us. Hang in there with it all and call me if you need some space to put it out there. I got your number too and will be calling sometime soon.

I did some reading about slipform masonry, found an article on it in MotherEarth. Interesting stuff and you're right labor intensive. Sweat and muscle soreness for sure...no problems here. I gotta keep that sugar, poison outta my system and continue with my daily exercise to stay in shape for this journey...LOL.

Poop? Bugs? More poop? And was that a pic of a snake you sent me?? Snakes!!! No hot water? Girl, this BrooklynGal is gonna freak out for sure! But I kinda think of it this way...It's like wanting to go on a roller coaster...you look up at the thing with all it's steeps and turns and your heart starts to pick up...you know it's gonna get you. You go on, adrenaline pumpin, and you start freakin on the hills and turns, heart beating madly scared shit in your pants...the ride ends and here you are askin to go on again. It's my intuition. I wanna go on the path and let my heart beat madly.

If the universe has another plan for your land, even with all our effort, we will share the stories (joys, sorrows and all) of our path.

 

can i join

 

Hey, I'm glad to see this thread still kicking.

oldwolf, your words of experience are so valuable.

I'm sad to say that I will not be visiting a frequently. Personal issues with internet addictions are causing me to have to give up my computer and this internet connection. I'm looking at the bright side though, and welcome the beginnings of a simpler life. I will be gettin rid of other things also. I'd love to get rid of my cell phone, but I can't do it yet, we don't use a land-line here other than for the internet now.

About vegetarianism, I've admitted that I am fairly new to it. I've been tossed back and forth in the mix of information. It finally seems like I've found some information from a neutral source that has no vested interest at www.westonaprice.org . Anyway, I'm reconsidering my diet for the longterm. Lots of veggies and fruits still have benefits. I need to take a look at grain consuption.

Oh, well back to communes, the main interest of this thread. I'll be dropping by. Good day to all!

 

Hey everyone! Shaina! Your not teasing me right? Because I will definitely take you seriously. Anyone that is willing to strive(that's what it's gonna take to get this idea of the ground) is welcome to come and see how it feels to them. I looked at some of your stuff(myspace and all that) and you definitely have the creative and open flair that could really thrive in the kind of environment I envision. In other words, you seem like you have a rockin personality and I like it. If you are a skimmer(like me... sometimes I miss stuff*smile*), then I'll remind you that it's no tiptoe through the tulips here. Like I told Gina(BrooklynGal), it isn't always comfortable here. We have no hot water, when we want to wash we do it outside in the hose(crazy cool! Makes you feel super hippie-ish), take a cold bath(no shower), or if we have time heat some up on the hot plate to add to out bath water. In the winter we heat it up on the woodstove. Our house is old and really crummy... Slugs and crickets get in. EWWW! *haha* We live outside of a rinky dink town. The work is going to be hard... Not kill ya kinda stuff, but definitely not easy. But all of that aside, there will be tons of time for art, creating, relaxing, enjoying life... That's what this is about, and if you can dig it... Please, by all means, let us know. We could use some more help, and more suggestions! Any questions? Feel free to ask! And maybe tell us about yourself. I would love to know what motivates you!
*hahahaha!* Gina, you are one funny lady! But it reassuring to hear that flipping out isn't beyond you... Everybody needs to embrace that craziness! *smile* You're right about the gov't stuff(I want to say crap)... I say we worry about us first, and them later if and when we need to.
Yeah, the slip form stuff will be hard work, but I think all house building is. I think it is the best bet in durability, low maintainence, easy(mentally) to build, and the price is good. I think we could practice on something small, like shed or greenhouse, and see just how well we can cope with it. Don't wanna bite off more than we can chew. I kind of look forward to the labor part... Good exercise and a feeling of accomplishment... Plus a house! What kind of gym gives you house when you are done working out? *haha*
I was outside laying in the grass today reading my book before it got hot, and was stunned by how beautiful it is out here. Yeah, there were bugs buzzing around, I had to dodge the occasional chicken turd, and I was sweating like a horse... But it was so peaceful, and Leo was roaming about like a wild man and I don't have to worry about him getting snatched up or lost. The only thing that made me sad is that I didn't have more people to be sharing the day with. I look forward to the day when you(all!) can come and see what I am talking about.
Oldwolf... Feel free to ramble on all you wish! It is so inspiring, and comforting(I really get warm fuzzy feelings!) to read what you share. To know that you are doing it as we speak, and that you are happy and growing and changing things, makes me feel very good... And grateful. What you said about your group still not having it formalized "legally" yet makes me feel better... I want to grow this with love and trust, not worry about rules someone else wrote for our "family".
I am slowly working up an outline of sorts for what I feel might work for us, taking into consideration circumstances here, using Oldwolf's, SSS's, and a few others I have seen for rough guidelines. Hopefully it will be together enough soon so that I can put it up here for advice, suggestions, and critisism(we all need some of the constructive kind). By no means is it set in stone, and I absolutely want help changing it... It's just a base of sorts, to be edited, added to, deleted from, shnazed up and pared down.
Wednesday is my dad's next day off I think, by then I hope to be able to bring this rough outline to him, and see what he thinks.
I'm a tired girl, so I am gonna hit the sack... Look forward to hearing more from all of you!