Ozy on Buddhism

This quote is from Ozy on a thread on the Christian boards -- for the sake of not going off-topic, I'm reposting it here so we can discuss it more in depth.

You asked, why on earth should we eliminate desire?

Because desire is the cause of suffering. All suffering stems from desire.

According to the Buddha's insight:
With Ignorance as condition, Mental Formations arise
With Mental Formations as condition, Consciousness arises
With Consciousness as condition, Name and Form arise
With Name & Form as condition, Sense Gates arises
With Sense Gates as condition, Contact arises
With Contact as condition, Feeling arises
With Feeling as condition, Craving arises
With Craving as condition, Clinging arises
With Clinging as condition, Becoming arises
With Becoming as a condition, Birth arises
With Birth as condition, Aging and Dying arise

I have also heard it with instead of "birth" and "aging and dying," I've heard "experience" and "suffering" -- birth being equivalent to experiencing the world, and aging and dying both being suffering of various types.

Ultimately, the concept is this. By the nature of our senses, there is some value placed on feelings, which gives rise to desires. Desiring is what causes us to suffer, because desire is inexplicably linked to craving and wanting -- and when that craving and wanting is not fulfilled, we suffer.

We crave to survive. That is why we dread death. We crave comfort. That is why we fear pain and torment. I could go on but there is no need.

The state of nirvana is not numbness or refusing to become attached. It is very often expressed as undescribable, but I believe that it is at the very least linked to control over oneself -- control enough to realize that the self is illusory, that wisdom replaces the ignorance that causes craving and clinging and thus suffering. That wisdom and insight into the nature of suffering reveals the cause of it -- and eliminating the cause (through that wisdom) is the way to end suffering of any reason.

Supposedly, it's been charged that a fully enlightened being is capable of not simply choosing not to desire, but also of being able to control how they experience any and all sensations, being able to feel pain as pleasure, and pleasure as pain, merely through control over one's perceptions.

Most of the "let it be" and "out of our control" is more related to Taoism than Buddhism. The Buddha was chiefly concerned with ending suffering, rather than the nature of flow and reality.

Just to add -- there is a VERY good book I read out there called What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula.

You said earlier that you feel Buddhism is too extreme, and isn't the "middle road" that the Buddha actually taught -- this book details and outlines all of the major concepts that are central to Buddhist thought -- things like the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the Five Aggregates, Dependent Origination, and goes into MUCH detail about what the Buddha actually taught, rather than the practices of the religion which spawned from Buddhism.

True Buddhism, as it was taught by the Buddha, is a philosophical doctrine, not a religion. =)

I hope this answers any questions you have -- feel free to ask any more. =) Someone here will tackle them.

 

My teacher in Nepal explained it something like this when someone on my retreat put forward a similar question to: "...that feeling, nirvana, or enlightenment? It seems more like numbness. Refusing to attach yourself to the things that make life."

It was the day before his students were going on retreat and they convinced him (the teacher) to go and get a bus and watch the sunset from a near by mountain top with them.
So they got too the mountain top and watched the sunset. The students thought it was beautiful and wonderful and the teacher also appreciated the beauty of it too.
But then the sun dissapeared behind the mountains and the sky went dark, some of the students complained and felt sad because the sunset had gone.
But the teacher didn't complain and didn't feel sad about it. Why? Because he had to some degree accepted the impermanent nature of all phenomena in this realm. Although he appreciated the beauty of the sunset as much as the students he recognised it's imperamnent nature and recognised that it was a temporary and fleeting moment. So he did not become attached to it and so did not feel sadness or angry when the sun dissapeared and the sky when dark.



To sum it up Buddhism isn't about trying to ignore or blocking out suffering.
You should realise this after only a few meditation sessions; You aren't trying to block all thoughts coming into your head, this aversion of suffering and is in itself a very powerful grasping desire. But equally on the other hand you aren't just letting your thoughts and desires 'run riot' and drifting off into a daydream, this is attchment to ego. You are simply letting the thoughts rise, ackowledging them and seeing them for what they are, and this instantly liberates them, you don't act on them or grasp at them, you aren't generating negative karma.
When you have a phsyical pain in your leg whilst meditating do you try to ignore it or do you just acknowledge the pain and then continue? You ackowledge without grasping to it (or at least you should!).

This is what I always feel what Buddha meant by 'middle way'. Avoiding the extremes one can slip into.

 

thanks for the great explanation.

I'm going to take this point right here, because it's something I only agree with in a very limited sense.

Certain desire might cause suffering. Lust, Gluttony and all that. Too much of anything can cause suffering.

But I have a huge problem with the idea that desire itself creates suffering, and that that suffering is problematic.

Ask any artist, anyone that has created something meaningful, and he will tell you that he suffered to create it.

But it's an amazing feeling. Creating something only comes through intense desire. It's the only way to get through the process.

But you fail and suffer along the way. You might never sell your artwork and you suffer some more. All because of your desire.

But it still doesnt matter. Because you absolutely love what you're doing.

That to me, is one of the things that separates us from animals. that intense feeling of desire and the ability to put ourselves through suffering in order to create.

Like I said, I understand buddhism's intent with certain forms of desire. But once again, the desire itself isnt the problem. It's just when it becomes too much in certain areas of life.

everything in moderation, right?

but thanks for the answers, keep it coming.

 

Is that so?

I'm not a traditional paint and brush artist, I'm a programmer, but certainly I consider some of my programs to be works of art -- and I have fun writing them and programming.

Sometimes, yes, I don't enjoy it that much -- and sometimes I loathe it, like when it's a school assignment.

But think about it ... I suffer (loathing) because I *have* to do the assignment, it's required. I suffer because I am attached to the idea of not having to do it, which causes me to procrastinate, and then I suffer even more because I get worse grades when I turn something in late. I suffer there because I am attached to getting high grades.

Any traditional artist would also suffer only if they don't desire to do that work. If they desire to do that work, then their desire is being fulfilled and they do not suffer.

This is true. If your artwork doesn't sell, and you desire for it to sell, then you will suffer.

I think this is more of a scale -- you are weighing your love (desire) of performing art, versus your desire to make money at the same time.

Most people value what they do more than what they're worth.

 

point taken.

but still, my understanding from what you were saying was that it's desire itself that leads to suffering:

my point is that with art, you desire something and its completely worthwhile to "Suffer" even if you fail. You only accomplish your work of art through desire.

 

Desire itself isn't the root cause of suffering...or rather you should break it down into the root delusions.

The reason that we experience suffering comes ultimately from our mind. According to Buddhism, our main mental problems or root delusions are: attachment, anger and ignorance. Because of these delusions, we engage in actions that cause problems to ourselves and others. With every negative action (karma) we do, we create a potential for negative experiences.

Ozy, I recommend you read for yourself the 4 Noble Truths, paying attention to the first because it explains the root causes of suffering.

Then if you still have questions come and we'll try our best to work through it with you.

 

def.

im going to read What the Buddha Taught.

sounds good.

 

Well I sort of see where the guy ozy is coming from. Desire is the root of suffering, yes, but if you never suffer how can you appreciate happiness? It's like, if you don't desire, you're denying what it is to be human. If you never want something (desire) with all of your heart, how are you going to reach extreme bliss when you get what you desire? IDK I believe in half way eliminating certain desires, but not all. I am not a buddhism expert btw, I've only started learning recently. Maybe someone with more wisdom can answer my questions.

 

Sogyal Rinpoche's 'Tibetan Book of Living and Dying' , I recommend it for its accessibility.

 

Hmmm, you aren't understanding.

A lot of people fall into this trap of thinking that Buddhism means totally destroying desire and not being allowed to have any sort of emotion, not laugh at any thing, not cry at anything, not allowing yourself to be happy...This is totally wrong! Buddhists aren't Vulcans...

As I tried to explain, it's accepting and coming to a realisation that everything in this world is impermanent and so realising that even happiness is only temporary in this realm.

Using the analogy of an artist since I paint Thangkas and Mandalas myself, yes I suffer when I make a painting and I revel in my success when i've finished a painting...But this satisfaction is only a temporary feeling.
I mean I admire my art and say "yes, this is a good painting, I am happy with it because I suffered to make it and now it's completed! I am satisfied! woohoo!", but after one month do I still feel satisfied? What about after one year? What about ten years later when I look at my creation? Do I still think it's wonderful? Does it still give me the same sense of satisfaction? No!

 

Ok that sort of is uhh, common sense. Whatever.

 

everyone has explained it so I will only say this:

Its about choice

you can choose not to seek nirvana
and go through Extream highs and lows of the human exprence
or
You seek nirvana and stay in a moderate but everlasting good mood.

 

Desire doesn't necessarily lead to suffering -- but the cause of all suffering is desire. When desires are fulfilled, there is no suffering.

The Four Noble Truths (real short version):

Dukkha -- The Truth of Suffering -- Suffering exists along with the world.

Samudaya -- The Truth of the Arising of Suffering -- Suffering is caused by desire, which is in turn caused by a variety of other things (see dependent origination, posted earlier on this thread), leading back to the natural state of ignorance.

Nirodha -- The Truth of the Cessation of Suffering -- Suffering can be eliminated by removing desire, which is the cause of suffering.

Magga -- The Truth of the Path to the Cessation of Suffering -- Often called the Noble Eightfold Path, it's the way in which desire and thus suffering can be controlled and eliminated if so chosen.

Of course these definitions are very inaccurate to the full truths -- they are more or less the "gist" of something that is far more complex.

I had a problem with this idea for a long time, but I eventually realized -- it's not like you can no longer desire. You simply have complete control over desire, and you do not get attached to things which are impermanent.

Everything in this world, including life, is impermanent. As we live, we crave and cling to these things, and wish for them never to disappear because they bring us happiness. The understanding and mastering of this idea leads to not becoming attached to anything impermanent, including the self. Mastery of it means one is in a constant blissful state, as one no longer needs to desire in order to be happy. It is true freedom from delusion and suffering.

Whoops, it was said already. Sorry mate.

 

Now that was a better response.

 

Desires cannot be eliminated, the can be understood, though. Through understanding desires drop by themselves.

I can also ask, "If you know that you will have a hangover, then why do you drink?" You got drunk in the past, you got a hangover, you swore (rhetorically) that you'd never do it again. But you did, didn't you? Where is the logic in that? Of what use is the rational mind, then? So what drives you to drink? If you can get rid of the triggers then maybe the desire to drink will go away.

 

I thought my discription was pretty good though...

 

you guys have all given me great responses.

thanks for them.

 

Extreme bliss is not the result of getting what you desire. Extreme bliss is not the pale joy that we see as the opposite of happiness. It is the joy of going beyond both, into a realm of total fulfillment.

 

Lol. I thought this thread was going to have quotes from the Ozzy...

 

if we eliminated desire, all our relationship problems would be solved. for some reason, we think that if someone has made us happy or shared what they know with us, we have to stay with them forever to prove how beautiful the moments we already had were. if we didn't grasp at and try to lock up anything beautiful or beneficial, we could say to ourselves, "i've learned and expressed all i need to here. it's time to keep growing and changing", and understand that the end is just as beautiful as the beginning and the length of a thing doesn't determine it's worth.

the sunset example was perfect.

things that are most beautiful are usually delicate and ephemeral. that doesn't mean we can't love them, but it's silly to be sad when they're gone because it's impossible for them to last forever, which we should have known from the beginning. desire is expectation, and if you have no expectations you'll never be disappointed.

we spend a lot of time living in the future. we spend now planning for later, which never comes, and our plans never work out the way we wanted. nirvana is being able to say "that is a beautiful flower". not wanting to pick it, not worrying that it will wilt, not wanting more flowers with brighter colors. just appreciating it, and then going on, a little more experienced, having your time with that flower and not trying for any more.