Things people do to their kids?

of course the teachers own ethics are relevant. I was, sure, assuming that their own ethics were not that which involved physical punishment but I personally do not know any teachers who think this and although I am sure they exist I do not think they are the beliefs of anywhere near the majority of teachers or parents...therefore if you engage in this sort of behaviour in order to control your class on an ongoing basis in order to keep your job and authority then you are violating your own ethics, a really important issue I think for all of us in the world today in whatever job we do.
All students, all people are ideal. Why is a student who is organised and manages to remember to bring everything to class any less able of being a good human being than one who fits into the rigid system that are schools. In fact it could be said that some studies indicate that students who fit into the nce little boxes that society sets up in such institutions ultimately are no more successful than those that break all the tardiness rules in the book. Sure school is about helping kids fit into society in some way but I don't think that the role of the school is to dictate exactly how you should fit in. The world is full of all different sorts of people and it is a better place for it, just because they do not fit into some little box that has success labelled upon it does not mean that they cannot live to their full potential and live fulfilling lives for both them and society.
You are labelling these students from the start and that in itself only gives them this label to live up too. There are plenty of examples world wide of people who do not fit into what is deemed to be acceptable behaviour within systems, that are in fact wonderful people and have a lot to offer the world. Sure, some people have a tougher path to follow and less opportunities and such but I don't think it is up to the teachers place to limit them. If students forget notebooks or pens then have spare ones. If they are late to class then maybe they do need some sort of help with time. Becoming a second set of parents is actually what the teachers do collectively at schools since kids spend so much time there. As part of this caretaking role it is up to the teacher to make sure that they do exactly what the title says, care take...whether the kids are fitting into the system or not it is part of the job. There are plenty of people who are incapable of turning up on time in real life and maybe in a school situation it just needs to be paid back with time taken from them in their breaks or other such solutions. I really think that hitting someone for not turning up on time is silly, can you imagine the situation if your boss did that, they wouldn't bother, you just wouldn't have a job. Therefore you are not teaching them how the world works if you do this. It is a complex situation but there are other ways and nobody really can say "oh, they are not ideal therefore they get punished physically" It is just not the way the world works.
I think we are beginning to argue in circles, you are convinced from your own experience that hitting people is an ok way to deal with a variety of situations, I am not. I do hope that when I send my daughter to school that more teachers think the way I do and that maybe some alternative means of dealing with situations can be found.

 

mamaboogie

Ok Control is just one aspect and is mainly important in terms of containing harmful spill-over effects on the rest of the student body. The more important part is to discipline the recipient if it is to benefit him/her.

stephaniesomewhere

As I said above control is only one facet of discipline. Well, the thing is some 15- 16-, 17-year olds are incredibly, incredibly defiant and disobedient and after a time you draw a conclusion that mere persuasion or a stick and carrot approach just doesn't work; you need to be very direct and explicit, not for your own good but for the benefit of those unruly students in the first place. If a teacher senses that s/he is gradually being deprived of due respect and authority then s/he is more likely to have problems about educating students properly and hence issues with his/her professional ethics as well because their teaching principles lose universal application. We are not talking here about brutally punishing second graders or anything along those lines.

That's true. But we can look at this this way. These children are going through their formative years and this is the time for them to show their talents and to take up the slack, they are not yet grown-ups. True, some incredibly talented students can be highly inefficient and yet they can turn out to be real geniuses. But they don't necessarily have an easy path to follow just because they are so smart; and vice versa, those who fit the requirements of a rigid system may not be as creative and face a different set of challenges to overcome. And here lies the role of a teacher to intervine and help a student to either stay the course or stay ahead of the curve, depending on a student's current abilities and potential. It is a duty of the teacher to be impartial and provide some kind of a common yardstick justyfing the treatment of ALL students; not just slackers, not just leaders, ALL of them. Obviousl a school should give you room for maneuver for you to decide in what ways you could fit in the system but if you deviate too much from the reasonable thing, then it is equally the role of a school to point that out to you.

It's not that some student is late to class or forgets a pen. It is a pattern, it may turn out a disease if a cure is not provided. Some will reqire less effort, but some other kids are incredibly incredibly defiant and they aren't simply prone to improve upon their poor behavior if there is not enough intervention or even the fear factor. Some kids just need a measure of discipline and they do benefit from timely intervention.

And, yes, this is a long debate

 

i got my swats, nothing ever left it's mark except that i was really sad and didn't want that to happen again. i preferred the butt swatting to the bullying, to be honest. if my butt was being systematically targetted, it meant dad wasn't drunk. it was controlled, it was a system, it had a beginning, middle and end. if my hands were occaisionally smacked for getting somewhere they weren't supposed to, it wsa because a swat to the hand was faster than a "don't touch that, you're gonna cut/burn/crush your hand." children and adults are not the same. for one, reasoning works with adults in a way it never does with children. i have to take my daughter upstairs and set her in her bed when she gets outta control, because talking to her is completely out of the question. mind you, my mother is the same way sometimes, too. go figure. but she's physically too big to put in her room.

all in all, given a choice, i'd have taken the swats over everything else any day. the entire point it to embarass you. hurt your feelings a little. but then, i'm not the kind of person who considers hurt feelings or embarassment to be a bad thing.

 

however, i don't want my posts to be contrued that i totally agree with spanking children. it's a new world now, and these kids will grow up and find out how ofeended everyone else is my the mere concept of it and feel that they were abused. i just don't agree at all with the notion that children who were spanked grow up to be violent, angry adults. i do have rage issues "inherited" from my father, and as such am not going to let that particular tiger out of the cage. but i've got two older brothers, a younger sister and a younger brother, NONE of whom take physcial violence lightly. it was treated as a very serious thing. the weight it was given, through the systematic approach to spankings, was very heavy indeed, and none of us has forgotten it.

 

I totally disagree. yeah, when my oldest is having a gluten-induced fit, reasoning with her does not work, but the same can be said about me when I'm having a gluten-induced fit (I only express my inner rage in a different way now that I've gotten older, but it's every bit as impossible to control my anger when it happens). Children are humans, and should be treated the same way you want them to treat others. always. I never want to see my kids hitting anyone, just because they are bigger and expect to get their way. I would never treat my kids with that kind of total disrespect and disregard for their feelings. You most certainly can reason with children, kids of all ages. Never underestimate the intelligence of a child. Talk to them, it makes all the difference in the world, but only if you allow them to talk and you really listen to what it is they are saying as well.

 

i disagree. i'm sorry, but my method of putting my daughter in her bed for a time out when she's freaking out is the only way. i've tried reasoning. reasoning has it's limits with EVERYONE. and i don't for one minute lie to myself about how much it hurts her feelings to deny her an audience, deny her my affection & my presence until she's settled down. i also know it's humiliating for her, especially since she has to apologize for her behavior. it makes me sad, but there are some things that will not & should not be tolerated. to deny her this basic truth is to leave her woefully unprepared for the rest of her life.