Islam is archaic

so people feel more for them? I don't think that ever existed as a coherent thought to propogate empathy for muslim women. It is about control and domination. And yeah the sub-female mentality is universal. Fundamentalist Christians do not allow women to speak in church (today). The Baptist union will not allow a single female to pastor a church. That's christianity. The bible is written in gender-bias language...i.e. God does not have a penis, but supposedly 'penis' reigns in the anatomical spectrum. Hmmm fallacy of the phallus...

anyway...i'm all about free'n the muslim women!

 

So what about the Holocaust? Hitler was not a muslim, was he?

 

While that fallacy joke just killed me,
I really have to disagree with you on the domination bit...

Obviously, some people don't like living the Islamic lifestyle;
and obviously some husbands, no matter what background
they come from, are just assholes.

...You can't say that the point of something as simple as
moderation in dress is a tool to control a population, man.

I can't think of a polite way to say it's ridiculous
that wouldn't offend me if I was in your position, though.

It's like saying that Buddhists wear robes to emphasize
a higher social standing than the lay people~
It just has no basis. It's completely taken from an
outside context.

Forgive me for saying this, but you're a bit too bent on
'liberation' of people you feel need to be americanized
to see reality. {I know it sounds rude...
I can't really say I'm sorry enough for that one}

 

rabbit Im not sure what your saying, the thing that annoys me is that muslims are in denial of the bad stuff they have done ,and that mohammed did

I would agree with you that europeans have been involved in some very bad stuff , but I dont think they are in the same state of denial .

cosmic no he wasnt a muslim, but he had lots of muslims who supported him I believe the largest waffen ss regiment was made up of muslims http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/ has some photos of muslim ss

and again I dont think that everything thats bad in the world is done by muslims or has been done by muslims , just that there is a whole branch of history of very bad stuff that no one seems to notice .

 

that last post of mine was refering to your earlier posts rabbit.

inside the culture if your a muslim women say in saudi how can you change the form of dress that you wear Ive talked to saudi women and they dont have any real control on their lives let alone what they wear .

because a religous police man will come alone and whomp them .... you see this sort of control or rape or acid attacks all over the islamic world to control what women wear

 

I think we need to realise the concepts of various people to see things in their context when it comes to what each people believe or do.

What is hinduism, parsiism, judaism, chistinaity or islam?

Is it a religion, a culture or a way of life?

Hinduism and parsiism are two ways of life of a people of a particular area. These people arose out of hind and paras. Word Hind is alteration of word indus and word paras is also alteration of word faras or persia. Now people living in these areas each developed a way of life or a culture and that is what these religions are based upon. Since both hinduism and parsiism are regional based ideologies therefore they never had any policy for expansionism. This is why people of these religions never sought converts.

Judaism is slightly different from the above two. How? because it is both regional as well as tribal based ideology. Jews come from land of israel and are children of israel. This is another group of people that is not interested in converts because one cannot become a jew just by adopted a particular creed since these people are a tribal people.

If we look at christianity, it is neither religional based nor tribal based but creed based. Since christinaity is a creedal ideology, it is by its very nature adoptable by anyone ie so long as one adopts the creed, one can become a christian. However, christianity does not look for converts by imposing its beliefs on others.

The next in line is islam, islam like christianity is a creedal system of belief and so anyone can convert to islam ie become a muslim. The main difference betwen christianity and islam lies in the fact that islam sought followers actively by way of jihad as it was imposed upon muslims by the quran.

Jesus did not fight any battles with nonchristians for converting them to christianity nor he taught such a way to his followers. This does not mean the followers of jesus did not develop the taste for wars and forced conversions. However, in comparison islam forced its followers to fight on till unbelievers are no more and the rule on the whole of the earth is islamic.

From this explanation one can see each religious scripture as to what it originally stood for. One will not fail to notice that islam was violence backed universal creed right from the days of muhammad. No other religion is same as islam in this respect.

 

I dont think that website is a credible source. Sorry, just sounds like some dramatic conspiracy shit that some guy put together. All it is just a slide show of diplomatic pictures...Big deal. Ooh! An Arab guy shaking hands with Hitler!
I knew you were going to find something to link up the Muslims to Hitler. I just knew it!
Muslims are not going to just change overnight. It has to work through the generations. There will be Muslims on Earth even after you are dead and gone. Stop trying to push against the river. Its happening already.

 

Well, then we all know people in general do crappy things to each other.
Noble truth #1
What do we propose to do about it now?
"Discuss," hehe <(^_^<)

 

islam haha

 

As for problematic side of religions, there are many problems with all religions. To begin with, hinduism developed into a concrete caste system that undermined some of its followers by others. This remains a problem even today for hindus to deal with.


Besides, women have been treated less than human beings. For example, divorce was not allowed and there was no question of a widow marrying again and so Hindus used to burn wives with their dead husbands just to make sure this did not happen.

parsiism was relatively peaceful way of life but slavery and treatment of women was the same.

judaism suffered from inferiority complex and as a result these people assumed themselves above all others. Slavery and ttreatment of women was not much better than hinduism.

christianity failed to get following from jews and looked for converts from outside. The idea was found very appealing to roman empire because it carried within the sense of expansionism and so it helped roman empire to expand using christian idea.

Islam learned from all its predecessors and went out of its way to try and conquer the world. Of course the problems that faced people remained mainly unchanged. For example, slave trading and ill treatment of women was legalised permanently. The divide of whole humanity between believers and infidels was set up for good and we can see the results of all these negatives even today.

Religions were followed by secular democracy but only if human rights improved that religions will be forced into modification.

Hindus, parsis, jews, christians etc in the main have moved away from fundamental religious ideologies and have fully endorced secular democracy and human rights though in practice things are still far from what they should be.

Coming to islam, muslims are still creed bound and if anyone moves away from islamic creed, one is declared an apostate and put through death penalty. Islam is a theocratic ideology and is in direct conflict with secular democracy and muslims remain creedly fundamentalists even today.

A point one must realise is that no ideology changed all by itself rather external pressures forced its people to look at the world from a different point of view for their own survival.

Muslims also need to be pressurised to the degree that they are forced into reformation. This is necessary for our own very survival because so long as muslims remain fundamentally attached to islamic creed, everyone else remains in danger. All this because islam is imperialist ideology just like christianity is. The only difference is that one has gone through reformation and as a result no one is killed for renoucing one's christian creed the while the other remains a danger for its own followers as well as the rest of humanity. Unless islam is driven into reformation at this point in time, the clash of civilisation and barbarity is inevitable.

The good news is that pressure so far applied has worked and muslims are opening up for change but it only means we must keep the pressure constant and if need be increase it till we get muslims to be none creedal muslims ie islam should be allowed to be freely interpreted by individuals as their personal faith which should have nothing to do with theocracy. In other words we all ie muslims and nonmuslims must work towards a common goal for the common good.

Muslims must be forced into accepting abolishment of slavery and discrimination against nonmuslims and women. They must be forced into accepting international human rights declaration by the un. They must abolish their alternative islamic human rights declaration. That is because it is fundamentally flawed, for it interferes negatively with international political setup.

What will happen if islam is not forced into reformation? It will start turning the clock backwards and in reaction to islamic fundamentalism the rest of people in the world would also turn fundamentalists and things will become really ugly. This too is beginning to happen that even secular democratic voices are becoming harsher. That is because islam is fundamentally wrong in certain respects and leaves no room for the rest of us to be flexible.

In order for islam to reform, we must help muslims in different ways. We must help them educate themselves and we must speak with one voice when muslims say or do something wrong as required by their belief system. Beliefs and attitudes do not change overnight but that is not the excuse to not to apply needed pressure for necessary change. Because if there is no pressure on muslims for change, why should/would they change? In other words they will not see the need for change unless it is made quite clear to them by the rest of us that certain islamic beliefs are fundamentally wrong eg killing of muslim apostates, stoning to death such people as might have committed adultry or killing anyone who might have drinking problem or for that matter cutting off of peoples limbs if they had committed theft etc. All these things are politcal and legal matters that must be left to politics and politicians.

The quran and hadith must not be followed regarding matters other than concerning faith and prayers etc.

I agree that islam is ancient and backward and unless its followers move away from islam to some degree, they are highly unlikely to make any progress themselves and are very likely to stop the rest of us from making any progress as well.

Religions in general are a backward influence hence people did not make much progress the while religion was their primary way of looking at the world.

Religions worked the while the leadership was there because the leaders made and broke rules as it suited them under their own settings, situations and circumstances. Once leadership was gone the rules they left behind could not be chnaged any longer and the wolrd moved on so the old rules, ideas and practrices could no longer work.

In case of islam, muhammad made rules as it suited him for his time, place and circumstances or situations but once he was gone the rules became fixed the while the world in which we all live keeps on changing for ever.

In order for old rules, ideas and practices to work, one need to recreate the very same settings, scenes or circumstances and situations and that is not possible. So islam also has to go to some degree and the sooner the muslims are helped to realise these things the better it is for all of us.

 

no need it wasn't rude at all. in fact your post is very well recieved and i apologize for knocking something that relates to your beliefs. i believe in Jesus and he is God for me. i do not need to say He is God for anyone else...who am i but a baby born 30 years ago with at least 80-100 years left in me (ahhh the future of medicine!), God willing. anyways, i am dust with borrowed words i did not create.

i am definitely a feminist, or progressive humanist when it comes to the gender issue. the past has dictated the subserviance of females and some religions that continue to hold fast to archaic ideas spin me out, considering the age we're in. the explicit female dress in traditional islam is...well all i will say is that traditional muslim women are not covered because they decided it to be so, but because man did.

and...this post of mine was only something in response to Cat Stevens and his ridiculous posts on the christianity forum. i only popped over to see if he ever posted in his own. anyway...apologies. happiness is always the best path in life and it sounds like you have some of that!
cheers

 

shoehorn ha ha

 

Mughal,
things were actually getting nice and peaceful around here until you showed up...

Why must you be so violent?
If you want to be an athiest, do it on your own.
Don't force everyone else to be just like you.

Your influence is not welcome...

 

Uh, not that I'm trying to put down pagan or earth-centered beliefs,
but there was just as much warfare and teritoriality under what we
might call the 'reign' of those religions as under what followed.
Yes, I thinkthe world would do better to learn from those societies
of the pre-'modern organized religion' period, but...

 

Hello proud muslim, greetings.

You know as well as I that this is an open discussion forum wherein your opinions are as welcome as of anyone else's and that includes me.

You are not in an islamic state wherein only you can speak and nonmuslims have to accept what muslims decide for them. I do not need to remind the case of abdul rehman do I?

Islam only wants peace on its terms and there is no peace with islam but for the convenience of islam.

If afghanistan was a nuclear super power, do you think that these people would let go adbul rehman unpunished? In fact muslims would have given nonmuslims the usual ultimatum, convert or be dead or live like dead as slaves or dhimmies.

You my friend cannot fool people by your basless claims about islam, for islam speaks for itself by way of the quran and the hadith or the fiqh. Islamic history and the seerah of the prophet of islam are there to show what islam is all about.

The only solution is that you reform islam and move away from nasty bits of islamic teachings like most people of other religions. Anyone who accepts islam in its original form as is obvious from the quran by way of its persistent tafaseer and the sharah of the ahadith cannot be considered a compassionate human being. Who would accept a person a decent human being who in this day and age defends or even promotes stoning to death for adultry, amputation of limbs for theft and death by brutal means for renouncing religion etc etc?

You are wrong for calling me violent, for I am only exposing violence for which islam is responsible as well as many of its followers. Had world not intervened our friend abdul rehman would have been murdered in cold blood just for changing his mind regarding islam.

If you want to be successful and muslim, you must fight for reformation of islam by bringing problematic issues of islam to your muslim brethren's attention instead of trying to stop me or anyone else from expressing personal views. I am not the problem nor even a part of the problem but am trying to help you realise the problem and do something about it the while there is still time to do a lot of good.

Stop condemning hindus, parsis, jews or christians etc etc for not following their holy books, for you too must stop following your holy books 100%. If you do not then criticism of islam and muslims will continue by all means and you people will remain a laughingstock for the rest of the world. You are telling me that it is ok for me to be an atheist but islam does not agree with you. Islam does not allow me the freedom to be who I wish to be and the case of abdul rehman highlights the very position of a huge majority of muslims very clearly do I need say more?

regards and all the best.

 

...I didn't literally mean 'get out,'
but what is your problem that you have to come in here
just to insult people and claim the only way for a peaceful earth
is to supress anything foreign with military "pressure?"

You, sir, are an ass

and when the hell have you ever seen me deciding anything for
other people and ordering them to obey my will?

 

Rabbits, you are an intelligent guy, there's no need for you to call people names to get your point across. You do it far too often.

And to be honest I understand why Mughal is so disgruntled with the religion that he once worshipped.

 

Do I?

I appologize.

I'll try to remedy that in the future...

I'm not feeling well. Maybe I should take a break from the forums.
I'm sorry, Mughal

~Kharmi