I have been interested in this belief for some time now, but I know relatively little of it. All I know is that Allah is everything and Allah is beauty, and words could never describe the smallest fraction of the ultimate. Does anybody know anything more about Sufi beliefs?
I would recommend reading some of the works of Rumi. I personally enjoy the works of Rumi, and consider a the Sufi's a mystical/esoteric form of Islam. Some Muslems look down on the Sufis, and in some countries it is popular, and others it is not. I have a Sufi tape from Tunisia and I know that the Tunisian Sufi's love to connect with God through drumming and chanting the 99 divine names. The tape is absolutely powerful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism The Jesus of your spirit is inside you now. Ask that one for help, but don't ask for body-things... Don't ask Moses for provisions that you can get from Pharaoh. Don't worry so much about livelihood. Your livelihood will turn out as it should. Be constantly occupied instead with listening to God. Rumi, Mathnawi II:450-454 My heart tells me it is distressed with Him, but I can only laugh at such pretended injuries. Be fair, You who are the Glory of the just. You, Soul, free of "we" and "I," subtle spirit within each man and woman. When a man and a woman become one, that "one" is You. And when that one is obliterated, there You are. Where is this "we" and this "I"? By the side of the Beloved. You made this "we" and this "I" in order that you might play this game of courtship with Yourself, that all "you's" and "I's" might become one soul and finally drown in the Beloved. All this is true. Come! You who are the Creative Word: Be You, so far beyond description. Is it possible for the bodily eyes to see You? Can thought comprehend Your laughter or grief? Tell me now, can it possibly see You at all? Such a heart has only borrowed things to live with. The garden of love is green without limit and yields many fruits other than sorrow or joy. Love is beyond either condition: without spring, without autumn, it is always fresh. Rumi - Mathnawi I, 1779-1794 - The Rumi Collection - Kabir Helminski What is to be done, O Muslims? for I do not recognize myself. I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Magian, nor Muslim. I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea; I am not of Nature's mint, nor of the circling heaven. I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity. I am not of India, nor of China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin I am not of the kingdom of 'Iraqian, nor of the country of Khorasan I am not of the this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan. My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless Of the book of God Thou art a copying, A mirror wherein showed The beauty of the King. All God ever wrought Dwelleth not apart; All thou hast ever sought, Find it in thy heart. In the market, in the cloister--only God I saw. In the valley and on the mountain--only God I saw. Him I have seen beside me oft in tribulation; In favour and in fortune--only God I saw. In prayer and fasting, in praise and contemplation, In the religion of the Prophet--only God I saw. Neither soul nor body, accident nor substance, Qualities nor causes--only God I saw. I oped mine eyes and by the light of His face around me In all the eye discovered--only God I saw. Like a candle I was melting in His fire: Amidst the flames outflashing--only God I saw. Myself with mine own eyes I saw most clearly, But when I looked with God's eyes--only God I saw. I passed away into nothingness, I vanished, And lo, I was the All-living--only God I saw. Baba Kuhi, in The Mystics of Islam, translated by Reynold A Nicholson In the dead of night, a Sufi began to weep. He said, "This world is like a closed coffin, in which We are shut and in which, through our ignorance, We spend our lives in folly and desolation. When Death comes to open the lid of the coffin, Each one who has wings will fly off to Eternity, But those without will remain locked in the coffin. So, my friends, before the lid of this coffin is taken off, Do all you can to become a bird of the Way to God; Do all you can to develop your wings and your feathers." Farid ud Din Attar, translation by Andrew Harvey and Eryk Hanut - 'Perfume of the Desert' ~~ We are the guardians of His Beauty We are the protectors Of the Sun. There is only one reason We have followed God into this world: To encourage laughter, freedom, dance And love. Let a noble cry inside of you speak to me Saying, "Hafiz, Don't just sit there on the moon tonight Doing nothing - Help unfurl my heart into the Friend's Mind, Help, Old Man, to heal my wounded wings!" We are the companions of His Beauty We are the guardians Of Truth. Every man, plant and creature in Existence, Every woman, child, vein and note Is a servant of our Beloved - A harbinger of joy, The harbinger of Light. Hafiz - "The Subject Tonight is Love" - Daniel Ladinsky
Interesting...What would you label your personal beliefs as? I share alot of my feelings with Sufi way, but I really cannot lay a finger on my exact religion. I love God, and I feel that God is the supreme being beyond all language description...God is everywhere and in everything...So I am not sure what category to label myself. How about you?
I would say read some Rumi and download some lectures by Sheikh Ozak & others (may their souls be sanctified). I'm sure the Threshold Society has something available. Rumi is the onleh book I took with me when I moved, and I'm reading some compilations of Mazaffer Ozak right now- it's realleh good stuff. I should actually go looking for some lectures or poems to download myself, thanks for reminding meh. Well, grouve on dudes. Salaams
The only way I could even begin to label my beliefs is by calling them (in extremely vague terms) Esoteric Pantheism. I believe that God is within us all, and that language lacks the capacity to reveal even the smallest portion of God, therefore one must delve within if one is to begin to know God. I also view God as being much more than a Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent Superbeing. I veiw God as Beauty, and Beauty as everything. Words lack, however, the power to describe what I believe, and even If I wrote 10,000 pages (which I could) I could not make my beliefs any clearer than this paragraph does. Other people can only guide you to the path to God, the path however is within, and must be traveled by onesself.
The "extreme sufi" view you shared EwokUtopia is acually not present in the muslim belief at all, beleiving Allah to be everywhere and everything negates tawheed (islamic monotheism) it self. : / , Point being, this thread would of mind as well be posted in the general section since there is no real connection with islam. Just a note.
I dont think that Allah being everywhere and everything is mutually exclusice with monotheism. My proof, there is onle one Universe. One Existance. One Ultimate Reality. One All encompassing, all surrounding, omniomni God.
Had it been a philosophical class, then such answers would be discussible. But the beauty lies in the fact that we muslims are (/should be) united behind -what we believe to be- the Furqan (the Criterion), as Allah describes the Quran, we also derive our basic tenets of faith from this source. Thus, believing in pantheistic thoughts may be seen as acceptable to some but certainly not under the banner of islam. A simple question; "If Allah is everything" that means I could worship any stone, bone or clone (yes, it was ment to rhime ^^) I might see claiming that this stone or this bag of urine here is acually "by the thoughts of pantheism" divine! By Allah, He is free from such descriptions!. The natural state that man is created with (called the fitra) denies this, when we pray we focus our attention upwards and raise our hands to the sky. If our Lord was everywhere, why then -naturally- raise our hands towards the sky? (The islamic belief is that Allah is above all of his creation -inlcuding the skies- , in a way that suits his Majesty) The description of Allah, as is decribed in the Quran can be summarized with these following 4 beautiful verses in one of the shortest chapters of the Quran but wich the prophet (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said was equivalent with a third of the Quran; 1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only 2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute 3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten 4. And there is none like unto Him[Q.chapter 112]
If Allah is Eternal and Absolute, then by definition, Allah comprises EVERYTHING. I respect your beliefs, and I do not want to argue against Islam because I have a huge amount of respect for it. However, I do also have my own ideas on God, and those are that God is bigger and greater than anything man could imagine, and certainly too great to even begin to talk or write about, therefore the only way we can even begin to come to terms with God is through inward journey. These are my beliefs, I am not trying to convert anybody, and if you disagree I respect that. All I ask is that you respect my views. I have already taken enough flak from them by hardcore catholics. I do not want to debate God if there is no respect for my beliefs. I am not saying that you are disrespecting me, I am just setting the terms for the possibility of future discussion on the subject.
Agreed, by no means did I want to start a debate with the famous Ewok. This is merely a dialog based on our different views and I have no intention to compell you to anything. My point was just that pantheism may be acceptable to the adherent of many different views and they may recognize it to be monotheistic but it is denied from the islamic viewpoint. My emphazie was on the fact that; once you start invoking pantheism youve taken the discussion outside the realms of islam (and this thread is not really "islam orientated"). For instance, a christian cant be a buddhist by christian beliefs but a buddhist may be christian by the buddistic faith. Take care
Pay no mind to cabdirazzaq, his views betray allah, his views betray islam, his views seperate and confuse and cause suffering and evil... mind you I do not blame him... Allah does all, Allah is all.. "allah" just another name for the one consciousness beyond time/space and in all time/space! http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148735 check it out!
I would disagree with that....Leonard Cohen for one views himself to be both Buddhist and Jewish. What I believe is that there are many different interperretations of Allah, and that no book, even the Holy Quran, could express a trillionth of Allah's being, because as great as the quran may be, it is still dependant on language and words, which are far below the full extent of human understanding, let alone Allah. Therefore, I believe that the true understanding of Allah and Islam must come from within, and the Quran can only be a linguistic guide to understanding Allah. I believe that the Quran is the word of God, but I also believe that God communicates with all of us directly in so many extra-linguistic ways, for instance, when we see and appreciate Beauty, this is the wordless word of God, I believe.
i believe the difference between sufi's and muslims is that the sufi can't wait until death to reunite with The Beloved. He/She lives their life seeking union here on earth. To the muslim who becomes sufi, or any spiritualist truly following this desire for Union with The Beloved, once meeting the Beloved - once finding that union (which sufi's believe is found in the layers of the Heart), i think it's with that fact that some muslims may think that sufi's are not muslim, that humans (muslims) are always under Allah, maybe?- the sufi, once finding God, see's Allah as everything, with no difference between himself and The Beloved, no you, no i. When i say 'any spiritualist truly following this desire for Union'. this is the sufi's only desire. sufi's are also called dervish, which means 'poor soul', or, having nothing in their soul but God.
"Nr.2 Not very suprising the author quotes the happening to the jews in medina, lets remember that the muslims were at first oppressed and had to live under hard conditons in Mekka because of the pagans living there. After a while had past, the call for migration hade come to due and the muslims migrated to Medina where they hade been accepted by the helpful inhabitans in Medina who also decided to accept islam, but there were a few jewish tribes living in Medina like banu Qurayzah. Banu Qurayzah went into a deal with the muslims that they would defend this city together if an enemies would come and when the pagans came with a great army to medina this jewish tribe broke their deal and helped the pagans tring to destroy the muslims. Because of this the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) gave the verdict to Sa´d ibnu Muadh. Sa´d was the man whom the jews wanted to give the judgement because they knewed him and they were shour that he would plead on their behalf, instead he gave the verdict that all the men would be killed, their children and women taken as captives. This awful tribe could not be left alone or be thrown out from medina like another tribe but had to be totally eliminated, the one who goes around comes around. " cabdirazzaq wrote... I learned about this in jewish history class. I was like and this guy is a spiritual leader... his solution to a few jewish leaders in a tribe trying to take down his influence, was to be-head all the men and take captive the women and children... Yeah he is a more better prophet then Jesus and buddha, the last prophet? come on... solve problems with a sword? and kill all of the tribe not just those that are the guilty, and without trial...? Put yourself in the shoes of a child, your father is the member of this jewish tribe who leaders plotted against a religious movement. Your father is not political, he is just doing a small job, trying to take care of the family and so on... Now he had to get his head chopped off and you are taken captive by strange foriegners, because a so called great spiritual leader wants to chop of the heads of all the men in the city. This act is forgivable of course, but come on... to make him the last and greatest prophet, to base a religion around a warlords teachings? come on? The guy is just a political warrior. A warrior shouldn't be the basis of spiritual religion, the sufis are the only hope for this screwy religion.
I feel the Allah is not in some weird dimension above and beyond. Anyways our planet is a tiny little sphere in outerspace that expands infinitely in every direction. If we hold our hands up to sky to honor God, we might as well hold them to the ground. There is really no up or down. Just gravity.
Indeed, Allah is greater than words may ever approach. Describing God to a living person is infinately harder than describing green to a person who was blind from birth.
I agree you with you on this, there is no way that a human being can imagine Allah. This is the meaning of the oft quoting verse; "And there is none like unto Him.". Its impossibe for someone to understand something or someone who they have know nothing about. But don´t you think that pantheism would mean the Creator, "by being in everything" would mean that one likenes Him to the creation thus contradicting that there is no way one can imagine Allah?
I could never fathom Allah with my little human brain, Cab. But I know Allah(God) is real. My beliefs are real to me, and I think that no one can say my relationship with God is not so because of their own understanding/opinion/reality.
