So have been giving some thought to what would be needed for creating a commuity... 1) housing of some sort ( yurt, tipi, log cabin, house, etc 2) Greenhouse ( to grow plants etc) 3) Recreation Hall 4) Barn ( for those of you who would want animals) 5) Cold Storage ( for keeping veggies in the winter) 6) Work shop ( for communities who are having home based businesses) Are they any other ideas?
Don't forget a shower/toilet house. Even if you have one in the house, it's nice to keep the humidity away from the main living areas in the summer. A woodshed was necessary when people were using woodstoves, so I can't imagine we have a better way. Just think about the buildings that were on the old farmsteads a hundred years ago. Additionally, the workshop should be kept as separate from the barn as possible. The amount of dust the animals kick up and the damage that mice (no, you can't keep them out of a barn) will do makes it necessary. In a larger building, you could probably split the barn in half and use half as a garage, but good luck keeping the livestock out. The grass IS always greener, it turns out. A summer kitchen is always a good idea, especially for fall canning chores. Just cooking dinner creates an awful lot of heat, so save it for those cold winter nights. The more separate buildings you have, the more wood you're going to have to use to heat them. It's the economy of scale. Camping out is fun, but living that way gets old really fast. 3am potty runs in the middle of the winter just aren't any fun, so it's probably better to spend the money on a (real) composting system for the house.
We're trying for a large community bldg (probably the only one built to code - going nomadic or agricultural for the rest) built around a large workshop; with an open second story; with a split level around it for water area (showers, laundry, and sauna & hot tub ), and large kitchen and large dining area that can also be changed into gathering space). The workshop will be well insulated and well vented and be multifunctional - mechanical upkkeep, metal shop, wood shop, and artisan shops. Close to starting the greenhouses - going into the side hills so that we will have the heat and cooling sink - in the back will be refrigeration (think of a big rt. triagle into the side of a hill about 3 stories deep) plus an 'unknown' living site (agricultural bldgs get around bldg. codes but are not meant for domestic use) the bottom back will be split into refrigeration and heat as well as small modest "work Quarters" for the staff. Bio mass is planned, utilising worm farms and fish farms as well as some poultry and goats and rabbits - IF we can come together on the necessity they involve called death - which we do have a challenge with. The fish and meats could be sold to natural foods restaurants - already have some unsolisited feelers from some restaurants and as well culinary herbs ; and are interested in healing herbs specifiacally ginseng and goldenseal .... ...... But all this is so much speculation. Have most of the equipment needed, some bldg supplies, and temporary dwellings to make it happen; but short on labor - and I ain't gettin no younger *sigh*. Have to do some clean up: as the forests had some bad freezing damage, a wee bit of loggin, and some vehicles were left to be used later - most of which were not gotten to in time. But still have loads of potential - nearest neighbor is over a mile away, lots of wildlife - much more than one would think of in NYS. Land is cheap and we own free and clear over 175 a. at present hoping to go for the watershed which could be much larger - need more money and people to do that - I went too deep with the equipment and am now strapped into about 3 more years to pay it off. Do plan on handing it over to others - one way or another, to go on to initiate more communities and travel. Keeping our visions alive. Got construction and heavy equipment skills, but damn the 2 gals and myself average well up there - Learned a long time ago not to divulge other's ages lol - and as time progresses we think more of the possibility of just selling - OUCH - so long a community planned and so ideal for out of sight and sound individual dwellings and organic and water power and wind power &...... Does have the highway close - ...can't do anything bout that ....... We planned on offering retreatsf or vision questing to both old and young to regather and find our Way, as well as an expose' of alt. energy and bulding techniques.. .... We have been cautious about accepting people of like mind - we are more of a spiritual bent than most, but believe in the empowerment of the individual, and are aware of the overwhelming C0-Depence our society has fostered. So far ...well we've had a few visit and are always open to visitation, but also feel that both we and potential members should both visit and then stay for at least a few weeks after they have gone home and thought about it to see how we all work together, before they decide to pick up and make a major decision to move here. Best description is offered in this link http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2917 for those who might like to see what's offered, along with some ideas...... - as I said this is meant to be passed on - so those that take over would be doing their own thing - so we do look for people of character - lord knows we are (characters) Well don't often put our particulars out there, relying on the personal forum and about half dozen times a year somewhere here in this communal forum to put the word out - we are not proselityzing nor desperate people - we feel the main thing ever gained is in the Doing - not a "success" nuff said - more than most often - Blessed Be your Way along your Path
Oldwolf, The one issue I take with your building ideas is the attachment of the greenhouse to the main living structure. Based on my experience, the amount of humidity generated summer AND winter is destructive to plaster, wooden furniture/cabinets and can encourage mold in plaster and bedding. If a method of balancing the warm humid air with cool dry air were put in place, it'd be great, but when you get rid of the humidity, you lose a lot of heat too. The only way to do it with any efficiency is through an air to air heat exchanger. Though it's counter-intuitive, I intend to isolate the greenhouse(s) from the living space and use a solar hot water system for heat and hot water with a wood-fired backup. Water storage would be used in the greenhouse to moderate temps anyway, and the humidity can stay with the plants, where it's needed, or vented, as required. Finally, since you need water to moderate the temperature in the greenhouse anyway, why not a chase down the center for fish farming? I had looked at your area of NY, but I have ties here that are, as yet, keeping my focus on VA. If things don't work out, at least I know there are some like-minded people in your area to collude with. That you are looking for others to help secure your local watershed appeals to me greatly. The economy of scale dictates that shared, community water and energy resources would end up costing far less than individual systems. I'd be interested to know what your wind resources are. I was at the family farm four weeks ago, and while we had rain and little energy - 0.5-1.5 amps - from the solar panels for four of the five days, the single, too-short windmill kept the batteries topped up admirably. Wind power is not suited for every area, but a tower at the proper height goes a long way to supplementing power requirements and extending the life of the battery bank by helping to keep the batteries topped up at night, during lousy weather and winter time when the winds howl. While I feel drawn to VA, NY has many tax, grant, loan and rebate programs for people who build efficient, alternative energy homes, and the rewards can be substantial: http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/map.cfm?State=NY&CurrentPageId=1&RE=1&EE=0 The idea of forming an NPO in an attempt to guarantee continuation is admirable, but why not incorporate as a for-profit and allow people to buy and/or work their way into ownership? While the danger of having the whole thing end up being sold is an issue, the lack of legal constraints imposed on NPOs could also be of benefit. The corporation could buy back shares from anyone leaving (or settle their estate with actual cash), distribute income equitably, take tax exemptions for all costs, every improvement, every mile driven, etc.... It just makes sense to me to take advantage of the tax breaks, keeping the overall income sheltered as much as possible and individual incomes low enough to avoid undue tax burdens while providing people a monetary stake in their own work and something to walk away with if they decide or have to leave. I don't believe in communism and haven't yet found anyone who could convince me that it works in the real world. Someone at the top always ends up with the equivilant of a Swiss bank account and a fleet of Rolls. No matter what you call it - the pride of ownership, self-esteem, self-employment - I believe mentally healthy people need to work first for personal benefit. In addition to the question of "does everyone actually need their own room?" I forgot to ask "what would be a fair stipend, in addition to room and board, for those people who work solely to support the farm?" Later! Kit
where we are is not an intentional community, commune anything but more of a way station, transition place.... but at the same time we homestead and intend on being more self sufficient at some point in th efuture to not have to work in babble on but choose to when we need something extra or special etc... We have an open invite here at all times and basically offer room and board type situation in exchange for a couple hours of work per day...,, but at the same time we for our own lifestyle here have to have most of your typical things one would want in a communal type situation,,, main house, other primitive housing units,,, tent n camper spaces, water of course, barns or sheds , greenhouses etc... however because we enjoy the camping lifestyle we also have out door kitchens, out house (need more ) earth ovens, natural water sources in these areas etc etc.... we have a site that basically explains it all in detail further and shows what we have n what we would eventually like to have... www.feelfreefarmproject.org as far as stipend,, us anyway it depends on what is is that is bein done,,,,, but we dont really have to have a set monetary value like a commune would .... here its basically how hard of work ,, amount of time spent on it ,, n how glad we are that someone is doin such a rotten chore for us... luv n lite
I think kit22 said it right, that's why i'm looking more and more at a co-op instead of a npo for now.... as for buildings, I would like a school house if there are any kids... and don't forget things like wood sheds and tool sheds. I think a stipend would depend on how many hours a person worked above the average amount for that day. if everyone does 8 hours and gets room and board it's kinda fair. if someone works 10 then they should get a little something on top, weather it's less work on another day, an extra luxury, first dibs on dessert seconds... congradulations and recongnition for a job well done go a long way too.
I hear you about the green house - - my idea was to go into the earth and at the very back, lowest part put in both a heating and cooling space - I was planning on enclosing them with cordwood which is pretty good insulating wise (18" thick or so) - none of my plans are cast in stone - when others input, then the picture changes. May still try it as it still seems a cool way to live (in a greenhouse) and that low mean temperature should be the 55 F so seems to be a good spot for both the refrigerator/cooler/root cellar and a heat source for when it is too cold. Best way I know to find out if something might work is to try it I do have hill tops on the present land - not quite the wind location I idealize which would be on the highest hill which we do not at present own. Problem with wind is transportation of the energy gained which often looses much in said transport. Co-op seems to be the way I'd like to go - ... seeing as you can do a NP one, and starting off that way does not mean you have to finish that way, but makes the intent clear to the gov. man so he does not feel he has to naysay it because you only went that way to defraud the bureaucracy - which believe it or not is the way it often goes - got to start it all over again - the gov examines as to whether you fullfill NP requirements but also leaves the door open to go in that direction if you at first do not qualify. Personally - I'd like to stay away from the whole legal mess - but without it you end up with sole proprietorship or partnerships - and sheeit that's another leal quandrary iffin you're trying to open the door to sharing in the whole of it. So somehow the legal question and bylaws that answer contigencies have got to be drawn up; and as questions are raised - solutions found. Back in the daze and today there are far to many willing to try to get something for nothing and watch as others work - being a firm believer in TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch) - somehow the idea that freeloaders are discouraged must be addressed. Any real community grows from it's members - hell even if 1 person owns the land, that person Can learn from othesr ,unless they be too closeminded. Only problem I have with owning it - is I don't really believe in owning - shheeeit seems more like the earth is letting you borrow her sustenance to Be, than the other way around. One of the ways I deal with this whole ownership - what can I get out of it: is to keep passing it on, using it as seed for more - Don't plan on taking any of it with me when I Go - but the experiences I sure do. Blessing to all as we all Walk the Way of our own Path
HO! tis how we look at the ownership thing too old,,, aint ours, we are here caretaking her til its our time to go n then passing it on one day to someone that looks at it the same as we do... luv n lite
I don't think you can simply withdraw from NPO status. Besides, if your farm makes little or no money for the first few years, what's the difference? If and when you do begin to make a profit, the number of people involved should be sufficient to nullify any taxation. Think about it, if you are only self-sufficient and showing a modest profit, what's to tax? After the cost of living and the legal deductions, what could be left over? If there is, reinvest and make it disappear. I too believe that we are only caretakers, but the greed and sense of entitlement I've seen within my own family has convinced me that there is no limit to the number of legal documents I could draw up to prevent any of them from profiting from what I intend to build and pass on to my intentional family. To say that I'm horrified at what I've seen would be a serious understatement. Two of them seem to believe that they have some right to anything they covet and I'm at a complete loss to even begin to comprehend that mentality. Please someone, explain it to me. If I believed that any of the communes or egalitarian communities actually functioned to the benefit of (all) their members, I'd be there in a heartbeat. However, as was asked "where are the monorities? where are the poor?" If people who have nothing but themselves to offer are not flocking to communes, there's something missing from the equation. I expect that the majority of the people who do the work and generate income are young, idealistic, middle class white kids and considered disposable by the individuals or groups in control. A simple analysis would prove my point. That young people with the right intentions are being used then discarded once they realize the truth of what they've become involved with is abhorrent on so many levels. They deserve better. I didn't come here for a fight, but communism is a scam perpertrated on the naive and I'd be more than happy to have anyone try to change my opinion. Living in a community that purports to adhere to communistic ideals may work for people with a certain personality type, but I don't need to control or be controlled, told what and how to think and definitely not how to live by any individual or group. True communism is a pure democracy based on shared morality, genuine interest in the welfare of others and a strong desire to improve one's own situation: Socialism with a healthy dose of capitalism plus plenty of self-interest. I just don't see that, and I've turned over a lot of rocks in the past two years looking for people who believe as I do. Legalitities are ugly, but necessary protections. I'm sure that many of you believe as I do, but I've learned that what most people say and what they truly believe are two very different things. If it takes written, legal documentation to establish the rules of a community, then what's at issue? Everyone knows what's expected, what they're working toward and what they should expect to receive for their contribution to the whole.
that whole diatribe you typed right there is exactly why we do things here the way that we do,,,,,, the idea of commune is great but the bullshit just aint worth it,,,, we aint even decided if goin non profit is worth the crap..... we have the satisfaction of a communal like setting, ,,, people of like mind here off n on through the year,,,, we have gatherings here n there n go to them as well at times,,,, its all outta our pocket and the few that donate to us while they are here n then they go on ,,,, always free to come n go ,,, no fees , no real legalities ,,,, just the benefits of family and love and all that we do accomplish with them.... and the few aggravations of not havin enough time to do things ,,, but that is just life anyway no matter where you are,,,,,
Diatribe.... thanks for calling it what it is. I try not to be an angry person, but personal experience keeps pushing me that way. I need a break from evil, greedy people 'cause they're making me evil and mean too. I was sure I was going to get flamed for what I wrote so I was appenhensive of even logging on again. While I'm glad that someone agrees with my point, I'm disappointed that nobody disagreed either. I wasn't hoping for a flood of hate mail, but one or two on the other side would have made for a good discussion. In therory, I totally agree with the ideal of communism, but only if I'm in charge and make the decisions. That's not where I want to be. Dilli, if I visit no-one else, I need to see you guys and what you're doing.
we are always here brother,,, so anytime,,,, never be skeered to jump on here n post your thoughts,,, there will always be agreements n disagreements online,,, lack of emotion being seen causes alot of it,,,, i would be willing to say you could toss most of us here round a firepit n a kitchen for a few days n we would have a hella good time,,,and a whole lot of discussin.... hell i cuold even sit here n debate the goods n bads of it all,,, i can just see things from most angles,,, something i have been blessed...errrrrrrr cursed errrr sumthing with... and in the end knowin us, the land , people in general what we do here is our best option,,, some fault us for that even,,,, some tell us we are slave laborers,,, some call us fools ,,, but hey ... it works fairly well so why mess up a good thing,,,,which tends to be what happens, unfortunately, when ya drag all the political behind the scenes crap into it or does it have nothing to do with the behind the scenes crap and just has to do with the folks that are focalizing the places and the people it attracts.... luv n lite
