Are conservatives mentally/intellectually inept?

Jedi

“i was talking about you guys putting a label on his political stance not what he says about people who live in a dreamworld”

Why is it you seem happy to label “bleeding heart’ liberals, left wingers, socialists, communists and anarchists” dreamers, somehow claiming that their views are fantasies, when you are so upset about people pointing out that someone who seems to have right wing views is being dishonest when he claims he isn’t right wing?

Also you say that Liberals, left-wingers socialists communist and anarchists live in a dreamworld but how do you then view Rats viewpoint, he believe he is working on gods side in a battle between good and evil” and that the forces of evil or darkness are devil worshipers. Do you think they are fantasies or reality?

 

That was brilliant.

There is something to being left/right and being authoritarian/libertarian, just not in American politics.

I had an epiphany the other day. I realized that the Democratic Party works for the bourgeois while the Republican Party works for the ruling class. I've always known they were both corrupt.

We need a party that works for the working class. Then we need a classless society.

 

Both parties are of the "ruling class," though, since both parties are owned and controlled by the same corporate interests. It's really all the same, but with different rhetoric to give the illusion that there is a difference between the two. At the top, both are working in favor of the same people.

It would be nice if our politicians did work for the people, but, unfortunately, most are bought and paid off by the big corporations they are essentially working for. A "classless society" might be good if the goal wasn't to make us all into a bunch of peasants on a global plantation.

 

No, that's not what I believe. (Again, stop telling people what I believe. Stop speaking on my behalf, please.) There is no such thing as good and evil. There are some truly evil people running the show, though, for lack of a better word.

 

Rat, you don't have to respond to this...but (and i won't boast this often, I just had a realisation) this is probably the most objective and constructive argument against your own in this thread...and i'd really like to hear your response. So will you forget balbus for a second and step up to the chance to either affirm your beliefs or compromise them? I can't choose and i cant make you, but i think it would be constructive for both of us.

 

I have explained most of this before, but I will go over it again.

You could say this is "conservative" in a strictly superficial moral sense, in regards to marijuana and abortion. But in reality, big, socialistic government almost always leads the abolition of personal rights and civil liberties. Those who support limited and minimal government are the ones who are really supporting personal freedoms. The smaller government is, the less of a chance it has to become overbearing and is better kept in check by the people. This is what the Constitution is supposed to protect us from, so it's not surprising there are those working to destroy it altogether. Under Bush, government has become bigger than it has ever been before (this is the absolute antithesis to conservatism), so it makes sense we are losing the cherished rights and freedoms that our forefathers worked so hard to give us.

This can indeed be considered "conservative" in a strictly social sense. It's one of the few things Bush can be considered "conservative" on, though I feel it's all a facade to win over the hearts and minds of the so-called "Religious Right" that makes up Bush's base. I really do not believe Bush is a Christian, I think he plays that role to make himself look like a conservative, because he is so socialistic in most every other way.

Like I have said before, there is no such thing as a free market. You cannot have a free market when the so-called "free market" is dominated by a handful of monopolies. This is not capitalism, it's what you would call supercapitalism, which really isn't capitalism at all. It's a combination of crony capitalism and socialism, as socialism is the consolidation of wealth and power in the hands of the state. Socialism is capitalism, only consolidated by the state. Communism and socialism are basically forms of monopoly capitalism.

Yes, it has everything to do with socialism, as socialism is the centralization and consolidation of wealth in the hands of an Elite few, at the expense of the public. In this country the rich are getting richer, while the poor are getting poorer. True "free market" capitalism allows everyone to compete with at some some degree of equality.

Socialism seeks to take people's wealth away (hence their rights and freedoms), making them equal by making everyone a peasant. If this is people's idea of equality and a classless society, well.... no comment.

I don't see a "flourshing economy" under Bush. Bush has destroyed our economy by wracking up enormous debts that threaten to actually bring this country down altogether.

You're going to have to explain how this is "conservative." The media was manipulated under Stalin as well, so to label it as only a conservative trait is misleading. If it's intended to be misleading, then it's just downright disingenuous altogether.

Manipulation transcends the Left/Right paradigm, and if you believe it doesn't, then you're falling right into the trap.

Again, this really has nothing to do with conservatism. Hitler, a socialist, used propaganda and patriotism in the same way to warp the minds of the people.

Again, you need to explain what makes this "conservative."

Same as above.

 

You are beyond pathetic at this point, you passed that awhile ago.

Thats not labeling, thats bashing.

You guys werent simply pointing out that rat was being 'dishonest', you were all out arguing on his political stance which i claimed is a piteous waste of time, accomplishing nothing, and that if anyone can state what he believes, its him.

I expressed my opinion that they are dreamers, due to our own needs, that the world dreamt by them can never be achieved. We can argue about that if your getting bored of this arguement, obviously you love to argue with the people you place on a lower level then yourself.


Youre very predictable.

 

Why does rat appeal so much to whiny teenagers?

Anyway...I'll get back when i've got time rat.

In short, some of those things are not characteristically conservative. However they have nothing to do with socialism either. Again, I feel you're not making distinctions. I don't really see a point in dismissing followers of anarchistic and communistic principles because of some supposed fake socialism which underlies the actions of world leaders today. The two things have nothing to do with each other.

By the way, I was relating the flourishing economy thing to the Howard government in Australia.

 

He isn't whiny. For a 16 yr. old he seems pretty intelligent to me.... and not because he has the same feelings I do about Balbus and his petty routine.

 

I thought you were someone else who was claiming to be a communist in another thread, and posted what I thought that other person's shortcomings were. (That person couldn't put a sentence together about his beliefs in communism). And yeah - then I didn't want to debate the issue whether you were in fact a communist or not. I don't fuckin' care, and I don't know why it's so important for you to.

I thought you were a poorly proclaimed communist who couldn't put two sentences together, and that gave me enough evidence to tell you to stop attacking Pressed_Rat over his own personal views and/or personal ideological claims.

...

I believe that I have already given some personal insight into why I think people feel that the Iraq war was necessary now and after the fact. I'll have to check if I posted my opinion at the beginning of this thread or another one.

...

I don't care if Pressed_Rat is dishonest and/or lies because this is an internet webforum.

For all we know - we could all be rapists, murderers, and pedophiles. And for all I care your opinions are not - nor will they ever - be any threat to my own. Especially if they are indeed lies.

So bring on the lies!!

We're all intelligent people here. I don't think you should assume that Pressed_Rat lies - and is trying to lie - but try to look at it like, he's just trying to explain to us what he believes. Whether you couldn't live with what he believes is entirely up to you. But I don't think that means that you are being lied to. Pressed_Rat has never claimed to have any blind followers in this forum, nor has any poster been readily accepting of any of his "lies".

 

[Balbus] “Rats viewpoint, he believe he is working on gods side in a battle between good and evil” and that the forces of evil or darkness are devil worshipers”

[Rat] “No, that's not what I believe. (Again, stop telling people what I believe. Stop speaking on my behalf, please.) There is no such thing as good and evil. There are some truly evil people running the show, though, for lack of a better word.” 03/04/06

[Rat] “I do believe in the divine spirit we call God, and I do believe the battle for civilization on this planet is one of good vs. evil” 01/30/06

He later changed it to the ‘forces of light’ and the ‘forces of darkness’ but frankly that just sounds light a George Lucas way of saying good and evil.

[Rat] “the agenda we are dealing with is in fact Luciferian in nature”

Lucifer, the devil, old nick, the fallen one, etc

**

OK well people are allowed to change their mind.

But without the ‘either / or’ viewpoint of either good or evil, don’t Rats ideas begin to fall apart.

Think about it

At the moment Rats sees himself as on the side of good and so his ideas are the only good ones and therefore things that contradict him are not good.

But as soon as Rat accepts that other views are equally valid and so equally good, but, that those views totally contradict Rats views, which one is the good one?

Who is right and who wrong?

It then becomes a matter of opinion, open to debate.

For example

Rat believes that right wing libertarianism or ‘true capitalism’ is the best way to reduce the power of the wealthy I disagree, I think more left wing socialist and green policies would be better. Up to know he has argued that left wing ideas are the work of evil. But if he doesn’t believe in evil he has to admit that these policies might in fact be good.

So Rat since you have dropped all this stupid good vs evil rubbish and admit your views could be good, bad or indifferent then I’m quite happy to debate your ideas openly and honestly if you so wish.

 

“In this country the rich are getting richer, while the poor are getting poorer. True "free market" capitalism allows everyone to compete with at some some degree of equality”

But Rat what is ‘true "free market" capitalism’

I’ve heard right wing libertarians say that they champion ‘‘true "free market" capitalism’, but their theories don’t stand up to even the smallest amount of scrutiny, as you know.

In my opinion libertarianism is the best way of handing over more power and riches to the already powerful and rich. How do you get equality in a system that gives the power to the already wealthy and makes life more difficult for the poor?

"As socialism is the centralization and consolidation of wealth in the hands of an Elite few"

That’s just your opinion, and an opinion you never seem willing to defend.

 

Jedi

I don’t claim to posses any greater “mental capacity and spiritual enlightenment” as Rat does, I’m just a normal guy wanting to find out about the world.

I find Rat interesting as a subject because he personifies many of the problems I see in US politics, such as dishonesty, a belief in irrational myths over reality, a belief that somehow right wing political thought is the only legitimate philosophy.

"I expressed my opinion that they are dreamers, due to our own needs, that the world dreamt by them can never be achieved"

Are you saying you think all leftwing view are wrong, why? So what political views do you hold?

 

Aristartle

To me (and many others) the ‘evidence’ for going to war in Iraq was not great and didn’t justify the action. But for many Americans it was accepted without much questioning and hardly any debate. Even when it became clear that there leaders had been dishonest, many continued to believe in them, while others have forgiven them or give them the benefit of the doubt.

You seem to have the same attitude, you don’t seem to care if someone is, or might be dishonest. You claim that this is just because this is a webforum, so in your opinion it doesn’t matter if people lie here, but that seems to me to be an indication of a more deep-seated problem. I mean why would people want to lie here? People come here to discuss politics why would they want to lie about their political views? Are you saying that you have come here to lie, if not, why do you think everyone else has, and if yes, what’s the point? Are you a troll, a mischief maker?

“We could all be rapists, murderers, and pedophiles”

We can only find out about each other by talking with each other and we can only find out about our political views and if they are any good in debate. It is not very different in the real world, I mean how do you know that your friends are not rapists, murderers, and paedophiles? Do you have them under constant surveillance? I don’t think any of my friends are any of those things because I’ve got to know them and if you are honest with people they are usually honest with you. If you go into any relationship thinking that the other person is a liar and possibly a rapist, murder, or paedophile then it seems to me it would be difficult to make friends.

“for all I care your opinions are not - nor will they ever - be any threat to my own.”

I would never say, as you seem to, that my views are unchangeable that just seems arrogant and close minded.

I have and have had viewpoints on many subjects some have stood the test of time and scrutiny others have not, the ones that did not stand up got discarded and new ones were formed, that is how people develop.

I have leant a lot from the people that come to these forums, I’ve read books that people have suggested and the views that people have expressed I’ve had many hours of fun researching and discussing.

I think people should never stop learning and never stop testing what they believe in, I don’t see views that are opposed to my own as a threat but a challenge, something I can test my own views against, and I don’t fear such encounters I cherish them.

You should try it you might see how much fun it is.

 

Conservatism Is Fear And Ignorance Combined.
Liberalism Has Brought Progress To The Flat Earth.

Conservatism: OBEY AUTHORITY
Liberalism: QUESTION AUTHORITY

 

Oh dear.

 

I totally agree... though both extremes suck a lot of cock in my opinion.

 

Aristartle

LOL

Is that ‘oh dear’ I can’t think of anything relevant to say?

Or

Oh dear I don’t really care about anything?

Or

Oh dear I can’t really be bothered to write a proper reply?

Or

Oh dear what was the point in writing a post that just said “Oh dear”?

**

 

Inquiring-mind was wondering why some people are willing to support a policy or position “after all the information, facts, and evidence” have shown it to be false or ill-advised even to the point when they have clearly been misled even lied to.

Well we seem to have some positions right here

One : Some people don’t care if they are lied to or if the evidence is shown to be suspect or wrong.

Two : Some people are unable to distinguish between myths and reality.

The more interesting question then becomes why they think that way?