Religion & Science Collaboration

-- Excerpt from http://www.uwosh.edu/colleges/cols/religion_science_collaboration.htm.

I just want to say this:

Props. All who signed this, and all who feel the same way, regardless of religion, denomination, creed, lack thereof, or opinion ... deserve props.

See the bolded and underlined statements. These echo my opinions on this the most. And I feel wholehearted thanks that there are still at least 10,000 people in this world that are using their brains enough to understand that much of the conflict between religion and science is unnecessary.

 

Good thread Hikaru . It's always nice to be reminded that not all christians are electively stupid.

 

I would like to be the first in this thread to THANK GOd for Christianity which invented and defined and promoted what we know as Science and the Scientific Method which has become THE standard for all the world and was so bravely and fantastically perfected over the centuries by Christians who were inspired by their faith in Christian Scriptures to do so.
Special Mention to the many Christian Monks, Friars, Abbots, Priests and whatever the monicker who invented what we now know as Universities and 'Higher Education'.
Well Done!

Thanks Christianity!

 

Don't forget the non-Christians that furthered it, now ... give credit where it's due, to Christians and non-Christians alike.

 

You forgot to take your meds again, Erazmo.

 

There are a plethera of scientific contributions throughout the ages outside the realm of christianity. All cultures have contributed to scientific study, even cultures predating christianity. Science and scientific study is an evolution of human thought and ability, not the invention of any one religion.

Nice try taking credit though, haha

 

Make that 10,001. I've long thought spirituality and science complement each other, like heads and tails on a coin. Two different sides, but part of one whole.

Also, Erasmus has a point, though, that in many ways the West (Christians of course) took science to it's farthest, at least until the rest of the world followed their lead. However, it is pretty dumb to ignore the fact that the pagan Egyptians and Greeks "invented" the scientific method, and that it was the Muslims who continued their method while Europe floundered about in the Dark Ages; you know, when the Church was in charge...

 

Thank you to the Christians who revolutionised society and brought it out of the 'dark ages' and into an era of unparalled social and scientific enlightenment!
A Renaissanse as they say.
These were men and women who had such strong conviction and faith in the Word that they put their lives on the line, often losing their lives and enduring all sorts of trials, tribulations, financial and social ruin even.
But
They found hope and endurance in their New Testament and Lord and brought about fantastic reform from an Era of 'darkness' to an era of 'enlightenment'.
Believe that God can be revealed through nature they ingnited a world of discovery out of which practically every modern innovation and principle or reason and investigation has come from.

I looked to see if any Athiests did anything and apprarently it was 'fuck all' according to the history books.
Although the principles of Liberty, Grace, Freedom and all these crazy Christian ideas allowed Atheists to develop and survive after the great modern sciences and universities were already established.

So, on behalf of Atheists I would also say Thank you to the Christian World that allowed them the freedom to develop their crappy now-defunct belief system.

Id like to thank the Muslim World for some signifigant innovation or social development or pioneering anything of signifigance.
Unfortunately there is next to nothing that comes from that Civilisation.
It turns out Oil was discovered by Westerners and was produced and turned into a world-wide industry by Westerners.
Ummm... but the oil happens to be in the Muslim World so... thats lucky I guess.
Congrats on that.

Otherwise, the Orient brought lots of great inventions.
Im not sure what else but I think Gunpowder and Silk are pretty good.

 

Pasta...pasta came from the orient

 

I'm pretty sure the scientific method came from Socrates. The Socratic method? Wasn't it christians who persecuted him and the thinkers like him? Galileo, Darwin, etc...
The greeks and egyptians who came up with a lot of science. The arabs were way up there in mathematics, and saying the mass of science is due to christianity is just stupid.

The rennaisance was a falling away from the religious governance of the church. When the church released its stranglehold on the masses, the rennaisance came about, full of stuff like humanism and nominalism.

Overall, thanking christianity for science is like thanking dog-owners for raspberry jam. They probably had something to do with it, but it would have gone on (quite possibly better) without them.

 

Now you're overstepping your bounds. You are NOT an atheist, and you may NOT speak for all atheists.

Erasmus, I made this thread with good intentions to bring Christians and non-Christians maybe just a little bit closer.

You are no longer welcome on my thread.

Posted for you here are lists of influential atheists which have had a significant impact on the world. These lists were taken from Wikipedia.com.

Activists

* Ellen Johnson - current president of American Atheists.
* Emma Goldman (1869-1940) - Lithuanian-born radical, known for her writings and speeches defending anarcho-communism, feminism, and atheism.
* Madalyn Murray O'Hair (1919-1995) - American militant atheist, founder of American Atheists, campaigner for the separation of church and state; filed the lawsuit that led the US Supreme Court to ban teacher-led prayer and Bible reading in public schools.
* Michael Newdow - American citizen, Dr., and attorney, who sued his daughter's school claiming the words "under God" in the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance constitute a breach in church-state separation.
* E.V. Ramasami Naicker (1879-1973) - Commonly known as Periyar was an Indian rationalist, freedom fighter and activist against the caste system.
* Vinayak Damodar Savarkar (1883-1966) - Indian revolutionary freedom fighter, and Hindu nationalist leader.
* Ali Sina - Founder of FaithFreedom International, a movement that denounces Islam.
* Barbara Smoker (1923-) - British humanist activist and freethought advocate. Wrote the book Freethoughts: Atheism, Secularism, Humanism - Selected Egotistically from "The Freethinker".

Entertainment

* Phillip Adams (1939-) - Australian broadcaster, writer, film-maker, left-wing radical thinker, iconoclast, Australian Humanist of the Year 1987.
* Woody Allen (1935-) - American filmmaker, actor and writer.
* Ingmar Bergman (191 - Swedish film director and playwright.
* George Carlin (1937-) - American comedian, actor and author, wrote a number of monologues about the non-existence of God.
* Kathleen Hanna (1969-) - Front woman of the 90's band Bikini Kill and currently Le Tigre.
* Theo van Gogh (1957-2004) - Dutch filmmaker, critic of Christianity and Islam, victim of Islamic fundamentalism.
* Tom Leykis (1956-) - radio talk show host.
* Penn and Teller - American magicians and hosts of Bullshit!, Teller (born 1948 as Raymond Joseph Teller) and Penn Fraser Jillette (1955-).
* Julia Sweeney (1961-) - American actor and comedian. Alumna of Saturday Night Live, author/performer of one-woman autobiographical stage show about finding atheism: "Letting Go of God."

Literature and Art

* Douglas Adams (1952-2001) - British radio playwright and author.
* Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914?) - American writer, author The Devil's Dictionary.
* Menno ter Braak (1902-1940) - Dutch author and polemicist.
* Mikhail Bakunin (1814-1876) - Russian philosopher, writer and anarchist leader.
* Iain Crichton Smith - Scottish writer.
* Sam Harris (1967-) - American author, researcher in neuroscience, author of the international bestseller, The End of Faith.
* S. T. Joshi (195 - American editor and literary critic.
* Ludovic Kennedy (1919-) - British journalist, author, and campaigner for voluntary euthanasia.
* Primo Levi (1919-1987) - Italian novelist and chemist, survivor of Auschwitz concentration camp.
* Joseph McCabe (1867-1955) - English writer, anti-religion campaigner.
* Henry Louis Mencken (usually "H. L. Mencken") (1880-1956) - American editor, journalist, and social critic.
* Jean Meslier (1678-1733) - Author and French erstwhile priest.
* Camille Paglia (1947-) - American post-feminist literary and cultural critic.
* Philip Pullman (1946-) - CBE, British author of "His Dark Materials" fantasy trilogy for young adults.
* Ayn Rand (1905-1982) - American novelist and philosopher, founder of Objectivism. Her philosophy and her fiction emphasize her notions of individualism, egoism, "rational self-interest" and capitalism.
* Percy Bysshe Shelley (1792-1822) - British Romantic poet, contemporary and associate of John Keats and Lord Byron, author of The Necessity of Atheism.
* Warren Allen Smith - Author of Who's Who in Hell

Philosophy

* Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) - British jurist, eccentric, philosopher and social reformer, founder of utilitarianism. He had John Stuart Mill as his disciple.
* Albert Camus (1913-1960) - French philosopher and novelist, a luminary of existentialism.
* Auguste Comte (1798-1857) - French philosopher, considered the father of sociology.
* André Comte-Sponville (1952-) - French materialist philosopher.
* Paul Henry Thiry, Baron d'Holbach (1723-1789) - French homme de lettres, philosopher and encyclopedist, member of the philosophical movement of French materialism, attacked Christianity and religion as counter to the moral advancement of humanity.
* Marquis de Condorcet (1743 - 1794) - French philosopher and mathematician of the Enlightenment.
* Marquis de Sade (Donatien Alphonse François de Sade) (1740-1814) - French aristocrat, writer of philosophy-laden pornography and pure philosophy, who denied the existence of morality based on a mandate from divine authority.
* Daniel Dennett (1942-) - American philosopher, leading figure in evolutionary biology and cognitive science, well-known for his book Darwin's Dangerous Idea.
* Denis Diderot (1713-1784) - French philosopher, author, editor of the first encyclopedia. Known for the quote "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."
* Ludwig Andreas Feuerbach (1804-1872) - German philosopher, postulated that God is merely a projection by humans of their own best qualities.
* Paul Kurtz (1926-) - American philosopher, skeptic, founder of Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) and the Council for Secular Humanism.
* Karl Marx (1818-1883) - German philosopher, sociologist, political economist, journalist and revolutionary, founder of Marxism. His famous formulation was: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
* James Mill (1773-1836) - British historian and philosopher, father of John Stuart Mill; he supported the utilitarian principles of Jeremy Bentham.
* Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900) - German Existentialist philosopher who wrote Beyond Good and Evil which refuted the traditional notions of morality. Nietzsche is forever associated with the phrase "God is dead" (from his book Also sprach Zarathustra).
* Sir Karl Popper (1902-1994) - Austrian-born British philosopher of science, who claimed that empirical falsifiability should be the criterion for distinguishing scientific theory from non-science.
* Richard Rorty (1931-) - American philosopher, whose ideas combine pragmatism with a Wittgensteinian ontology that declares that meaning is a social-linguistic product of dialogue. He actually rejects the theist/atheist dichotomy and prefers to call himself "anti-clerical."
* M. N. Roy (1887-1954) - Indian political thinker, founder his Radical Humanism school of philosophy.
* Bertrand Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM (1872-1970) - British mathematician, philosopher, logician, political liberal, activist, popularizer of philosophy, and 1950 Nobel Laureate in Literature. On the issue of atheism/agnosticism, he wrote the essay "Why I Am Not a Christian".
* Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980) - French existentialist philosopher, dramatist, novelist and critic.
* Henry Sidgwick (1838-1900) - British philosopher, follower of utilitarianism.
* Peter Singer (1946-) - Australian philosopher and teacher, working on practical ethics from a utilitarian perspective, controversial for his opinions on abortion and euthanasia.

Politics & Law

* Michelle Bachelet (1951-) - President-elect of Chile. [1]
* Charles Bradlaugh (1833-1891) - British Member of Parliament, political activist, secularist, freethinker, advocate of trade unionism, republicanism, and women's suffrage.
* Clarence Darrow (1857-1938) - American lawyer and civil libertarian, defence attorney at the Scopes Monkey Trial, where he defended a school teacher who taught the theory of evolution.
* Wim Kok - Dutch Prime Minister from 1994 to 2002.
* Bob Hawke (1929-) - Australian Prime Minister from 1983 to 1991.
* Alfred Sant (194 - Maltese politician who was Prime Minister of Malta from 1996 to 1998.

Science & Medicine

# (1870-1937) - Austrian psychiatrist, believed that God was a psychological projection, though helpful.
# Richard Dawkins (1941-) - British zoologist, biologist, creator of the concept of the selfish gene and the meme; outspoken atheist and popularizer of science.
# Joseph Fletcher (1905-1991) - founder of the theory of situational ethics, pioneer in the field of bioethics, transhumanist.
# Sigmund Freud (1856-1939) - Austrian neurologist, father of psychoanalysis, considered the belief in God to stem from an unconscious fear of one's own biological father.
# Jonathan Miller (1934-) - British doctor, theatre director, journalist and broadcaster. Recently made a programme, Atheism: A Rough History of Disbelief, discussing the history of atheism.
# Julien Offray de La Mettrie (1709-1751) - French physician and philosopher, earliest of the materialist writers of the Enlightenment.
# Carl Sagan (1934-1996) - American astronomer, author, science popularizer, and proponent of the search for extraterrestrial life.
# Burrhus Frederic Skinner (1904-1990) - American psychologist and author, a pioneer on experimental psychology, advocate of behaviorism, and writer of two books on social engineering.
# Max Stirner (1806-1856) - German philosopher, Young Hegelian, one of the literary grandfathers of nihilism, existentialism and anarchism.
# Matt Ridley (195 - British zoologist, science writer and journalist, open supporter of libertarianism in politics and reductionism in biology.
# James D. Watson (1929-) - Nobel Prize laureate, co-discoverer of the structure of DNA.

Classics

* Anaxagoras (500?-428? BCE) - Greek philosopher, freethinker, regarded the conventional gods as mythic abstractions endowed with anthropomorphic attributes.
* Brihaspati - Traditionally taken to be the founder of the Lokayata philosophical school in India, along with Carvaka.
* Carvaka - Materialist philosopher in ancient India.
* Democritus (460?-357 BCE) - Greek philosopher, father of materialism, viewed everything as matter composed of indestructible particles ("atoms").
* Diagoras (called Diagoras the Atheist of Melos) (5th cent. BCE) - Greek poet and sophist.
* Epicurus (341-270 BCE) - Greek materialist philosopher.
* Lucretius (96?-55 BCE) - Roman philosopher and poet, Epicurean atomist, wrote On the Nature of Things.
* Protagoras (481?-411 BCE) - Greek philosopher.
* Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the Younger" (BCE 4-65 CE) - Roman stoic philosopher, writer and politician.

-----

Erasmus: Clearly, you found "fuck all" for atheists, because you did not even look.

Erasmus, you are an absolute disgrace to your entire religion. Give credit where it is due.

 

Erasmus, you might be taking it a little far with your second post there. I guess you're trying to make a point?

"no longer welcome on my thread"

Well, once it's posted on the public forum, it's open to all. That's the whole idea. Though, I am of course in support of bringing folks together. All you hear about these days is divisiveness, and clowns like Erasmus here trying to give all the credit to his sect is just another example. Yes, his sect deserves credit for some things, but that's not the point. It's certainly not the point of this thread. Really, what you're getting at here is whether science and religion can coexist and work together, or if they're fundamentally opposed.

 

Total and absolute idiotic rubbish for anyone to even be starting a presumption there is any dichotemy between 'Christianity' VERSUS 'Science'.

This is easily and repeatedly the dumbest false dichotemy being thrown up, ad nauseum on internet pages.

What you now know as 'Science' comes from a direct lineage right back into the Christian Universities and was A PART of what their Christianity was about and for.

Its like 10,000 Christians 'agreeing' that Evangelism is good.
Wow.
Hmm.. "its good to see at least some Christians are not against evangelism"
I mean seriously.. wtf?

 

I'm gonna call bs on you. So...
BS.

 

And yet ... billions of people across the face of the globe make this distinction every day. Granted that they are idiots, but the dichotomy exists, even if nominally only.

Because the VAST majority of Christians ARE against science.

In a world where Christians are saying the equivalent of "evangelism is the devil," it is very good to see some that still have their heads on straight enough to not belong in the looney bin.

You, of all people, Erasmus, should know what the followers of your faith dribble out of their mouths at times.

Not that they are all like that. But most of them are. Just as most of humanity, regardless of religion, is like that, atheists included.

 

Total Nonsense.
Might as well say..
"Because the VAST majority of Christians ARE against Charity."

Nothing short of a propaganda gimmick trying to make-believe there is some such a situation.
YOU are undoubtedly one of the victims and not perpetrators of this totally baseless and downright silly rumour.

How do we know?
Oh.. I just looked out my window and snow is not brown either.
Its White.
Live in reality please.

 

Science and religion(a whole hearted seeking of truth) can be looked at as different means toward the same end. Quoting a line from a Dead Sea Scroll, God loves knowledge, wisdom and prudence serve him.

 

Erasmus, are you deaf to the Christians who call evolution, or science in general, the tool of Satan and curse it as false? Do you not see all the evangelicals fighting to water down science to include their Bible-myth of creation? Stop acting as if science originated withint Christianity or that it's just another arm of that faith. It predates it, and has little to do with it, aside from the fact that there were and are Christians doing science. There are Muslims that do science too but we don't call science a Muslim institution.

 

Living in reality, I have only met a handful of Christians that believe that science is not the work of Satan.

Why do you think I made this thread, Erasmus? Because ONLY 10,000 CHRISTIANS have signed this declaration!

And the vast majority of Christians ARE basically saying that they are against charity (science). When is the last time you heard a Christian talk about the Big Bang as the way God created the universe, huh? When was the last time you heard a Christian accept evolution as how humans came to be?

Erasmus, you are a blind man. You do not see that the members of your own religions are frothing at the mouth to get ride of science. You turn a deaf ear to the Kansas school board which changed the definition of what science is considered to be in order to include intelligent design into a science classroom! You ignore the Dover school board forcing students to unconstitutionally learn about intelligent design.

Where were you when all of this happened, hiding under a rock?

Have you heard nothing of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, which was started as a ridicule of those Christians that want to change science to include their own religious agendas? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster>

Exactly.

To begin with, science was PREDOMINANTLY furthered by atheists and heretics and those people which don't believe in God. Because they don't believe in the necessary miracles associated with such a higher power, they naturally seek an explaination for why it occured.

Science existed far before Christianity ever did. And it will exist FAR after Christianity dies.

 

Scorates, if he existed, was born in the generation before Plato. That means he died over 400 years before Jesus was born. Therefore, he cannot have been persecuted by Christians.

The scientific method is the empirical method. Newton's Principia is regarded as the foundation text for science as we understand it today, although it doesn't explicitly lay out the empirical method. As such, "science" begain in the 1600s. Before that we were working off Aristotle's writings (who was a student of Plato) which has been one of the key motivators for the Renaissance.

The history of science as we understand it today is therefore inseperable from Christianity. Gallileo was a committed Christian up to the day he died. As was Copernicus, Newton, Boyle, Descartes and Pascal and any of the other founding fathers of modern science. This empirical method that is the basis for all research in all labs everywhere today is based on the assumption that there is an order to the universe that we can come to understand. Although we no longer automatically realise that this order is far more likely to have arisen through the intentional intervention of a creator (based on the famous Razor principle of another great Christian scientist, Ockham), when science first got going, these Christians understood their work as an act of worship to God.

So I think some of the over the top Christian responses are silly and self defeating but Hikaru Zero is also suffering from (an understandable) lack of historical perspective.