Drugs, RocknRoll,and Christianity

Last night, while stoned and channel surfing, I stopped for a minute on the local christian station. It was interesting to note the similarities between the celebration being televised and a rock and roll concert, everything from electrified guitars, light shows to screaming teenagers. An ecstatic experience, to be sure. Only lacking the drugs, but who knows? It seems like the evangelicals have recognized what turns the people on and are using it.

 

I would suggest this might not necessarily be 'evangelicals' but specifically 'Charismatics'?

Having not seen this myself, it does sound like you are speaking of 'charismatic worship' in which they often use (deliberately) things like percussion instruments and induce what Im going to call a 'trance' type of rythm and beat.
They believe this will 'empty their mind' and leave it open for the 'Infilling of the Holy Spirit' in which they hope to receive supernatural gifts such as speaking in languages or prophecy etc.

Im not sure, but that sounds like what your describing.
We call them 'Holy Rollers'.
This is because in the 'old skool' charisma days, some would go into trance states and even begin rolling up and down the aisles.

forget drugs.. they get into ecstatic states no drug on earth can match lol!

 

Sounds like fun.

(I'm not being sarcastic here, believe it or not.)

I'm all for the electric guitars and trance. It's a very fulfilling experience which one can get lost in.

 

Charismatics describes it better. But what intrigued me was that now it is going mainstream, white middle-class america, televised from big venues like a major rock act would perform at. And it so closely resembled a rock show, except for that it was all about rejoicing in the "Lord" etc.. But when I think about it some...maybe the rock shows are rooted in the holy rollers and revival meetings more than the other way around.

 

Heh... I think you are onto something Mati !
Holy Rollers started to really get things 'rollin' about 100 years ago, maybe whats really happened here is that some clever marketing scouts took notice and figured that there must be some way to make a 'secular' version of the product hehe.

The really funny thing is that there really is a blurry line between the whole world of Spiritual drumbeat trances, Choirs and RocknRoll if you were to look into the thing.
That 'Drumbeat' that beat, the rythm and these elements really do owe a whole lot of credit to African drumbeats.
People who study these things say that what we now call 'rock' and this sort of thing came out of African Slavery Descendants who combined that with 'European' instruments such as Pianos and Guitars.
Now put that together with 'Spirituals' and what were Gospel Choir hymns and get everyone drunk one night and that became 'Blues' and I think we all have figured that 'Rock n Roll' pretty much came from there.

So.. maybe Im getting carried away here but it seems to me like your theory that it may have all come full-circle and back and back again heh.

 

This thread is closely related what the very ancient Indian/Hindu practice of kirtan is all about...the congregational chanting and singing of the names of God, with instrumental accompaniment. There are many mantras or sacred chants that are sung; the best-known and most popular in the west and many parts of India is the Hare Krishna mantra. Kirtan unites the energies of many participants and can induce very ecstatic states of consciousness.

 

Its true that there are Eastern 'Mystery Cults' which have been entrancing themselves into states of ecstacy and (get ready for this)... working themselves into 'speaking in mystery tongues'
This is outside of anything Charismatics think they might have started.
(well.. they think God is starting it I guess).

You are probably right Spook about this 'Kirtin' thing.. maybe thats who it was I heard of too.

Anyways, Im one of the Christians that is FOR inspiring and upbeat and 'celebratory' hymns.
I think that is great.
I also think joyous and upbeat music is really something of the opposite of 'entrancing' beats and ecstacy.
I know it sounds like they would be similar types of music but I find a song like (off top of head example):

Queen: We are the Champions - its moving and 'inspiring' and soars your emotions but to an up and aware state.
Up and Aware.

Queen: Another one bites the Dust - its a kickass song too but it repetitive groove.. its the kind of song that you can start humming and your less aware and less inspired but more 'down and into' the thing.

Now thats fine for some good old rock and a distraction too.
duhn duhn duhn... nutheronebitesthedusts...dddddd.. duhn duhn duhn.

But.. I dont think that is helpful in a Christian Worship setting.
Why?
Because I think you want to bring yourself to an 'Alert and Aware' and outgoing mood and not into a 'trance'.
Why do Cults like entrancing repetitive stuff.. because your highly suggestible.

For what its worth.. The Newsboys: Breakfast Song (aka Breakfast in Hell) remains one of my favourite Christian songs for the third year running.
Even heard some crap secular band do a hack version that got in the top 40 (dont ask me the name though).

Silly, fun and a beat that brings you 'up and aware'.

 

I'm Charasmatic...We call our self Pentecostal most of the time. And No you don't need music to go into a "trance" (its prayer) you should experince it sometimes! lets ya know God is there!

Not all of us are "Holly Rollers" either.

 

There are not that many Holy Rollers anymore, just as there are few 'Quakers' anymore. (the name comes from the action they would do.. quaking or shaking in their pews).

Its interesting that you cite as a reason for, what you believe is supernatural experience as 'knowing God is there'.
Interesting because I had, now infamous debates with my holyroller boss about the purpose and need for the alleged 'speaking in tongues' he figured he was doing.
He always came back to that similar answer - It confirms God is real.
I insisted that I already have the revealed Word of God and then we see the consequences/benefits in every aspect of our lives.
Still.. he insisted that we needed these 'charisma' to remind us or prove again how its real.
Ok.
But yeah.. I mean, I attended plenty of Pentecostal and Charismatic meetings, services etc.
Please understand that I do realise and agree that it is possible and I do not doubt that God, if He sees fit, can and might bestow these gifts on someone.
However,
I never see anything that cannot be explained by common sociological/psychological techniques or duplicated by anyone else (such as a cult or even a good stage hypnotist)

You should have been at the 'Prophecy' workshop I attended hehe.. just bizarre and I did manage to keep from laughing though.
Wild.

 

As far as I know, "speaking in tongues" isn't part of any major Indian/Hindu schools of philosophical thought or practice, but there are numerous smaller traditions and anything is possible.

Kirtan is accompanied by specific types of drums, cymbals, etc., and over the course of an hour's kirtan several different chants will be sung, with one predominating. Much like expressive Christian counterparts...spontaneous and joyful with dancing, upraised arms, clapping...generally no "holy rolling" though in mainstream Hindu or Hare Krishna temples. It's not a "hypnotic" thing...a good kirtan leader knows how to vary the melodies and tempo to where it's not just monotonic chanting. The idea behind kirtan is that the chants are composed of words, sounds, and phrases that originate in the transcendental spiritual world, and are totally spiritual in nature.

Bhajan is the more sedate type of traditional Hindu musical worship...songs or hymns, some quite long and complex in verse, sung to accompaniment of the harmonium, which is a small hand pumped Indian style organ, and softly played drums, small cymbals, and sometimes stringed instruments like the sitar and tambura. In western countries, compatible instruments like guitars are sometimes used as well. Bhajans are often composed like Christian hymns, and similar in spirit...songs of praise, with several stanzas, each followed by a repeating chorus.

Kirtan and Bhajans are usually sung in Hindi, Bengali, and other Indian languages, as well as the ancient Sanskrit.

I've heard traditional Bhajans mixed in with well-known Christian lyrics...done by a master musician such as Krishna Das, very beautiful.

 

Actully tounges is to glorify God/yourself/church...Its not knowing god is "real" its to know he is there..Big diffrence.I want to feel him around me, I already know he is real.

I suggest You read Acts and Corinthians I think you need a broader understanding.

 

I suggest you read Acts again but this time as an account and not an instruction.
If you want to keep reading it as an instruction manual then feel free to go handle some poisonous vipers too.
Why stop there.
You might want to read Corinthians again too and try and figure out why you and nobody around you is speaking in a known language.
Always the mysterious 'angel language'.
Convenient.

 

Whoa...We are no longer to take the bible as word of instruction? I think if we did take what Christ said as instructions we wouldn't be having crusades now would we?

Also the verse I think your talking about...ya you've really gotta want to prove yourself right to twist something like that. Doesn't it say "You can" not "you must" also wouldn't that fall under tempting god? Satan told Jesus to jump because he could be saved (which he could) however like he said "don't tempt god"

Also how do you know its not a Known language? I highly doubt you even speak 5 languages. Plus so now God is limited only to using "known un mysterious human" language to communcate????

So class if we follor Mr.Eramus

A)Don't take the word of God as Instructions on how to live
B)Tempt God
C)If you don't know more then one lanuge everything else is a "mysterious angel language"
D)God is bound by something so simple as man made language and/or english!


Geeez Eramus you really showed me!

 

Oh and to help you out Eramus becuase you like using big words that you don't know the defenition to.

Glossolalia
Xenoglossia

have fun with those!

 

Thanks.
I was familiar with those words by the time I was a teenager and took the time to find out why they are being abused and misused by holy rollers.

Here are some words for you:

Psychosomatic disorder

What is happening is that there is tremendous social and psychological pressure on you to conform and of course, you believe this is a gift of God and desireable so you also compel yourself.
By subtle and focused attempts you do something which is actually so simple that children can do it on playgrounds just on whims.
Crazy people do it in Mental institutes.
Babbling, silly talking, jibber-jabbering... even a lot like just humming or making sound effects or inflections.
Thats it.
We all can do that all the time really.
You begin trying to hear words or sounds and then you start trying to allow your mouth to 'speak them out'.
Especially when the first attempts are met with a sudden and wonderous approval of friends and family - it becomes easier.

Because you think they are supposed to become words.. your mind will simply do what it can always do and does best - look for a 'pattern' and try and develop it.
Probably at that point, you yourself even think "wow.. that IS a word or even a sentence kinda sound I want to do here!"

The really funny part is that, naturally, people can only produce what 'they think and know' are languages and sounds.
How can I put this... A monolingual (english) speaking American will often produce what is (in his/her mind) a 'Tongue' (meaning Language) which they think 'sounds like Hebrewish'.
In their mind, their reference is what they have heard a Rabbi reading at a Barmitzvah or something.
Lots of 'sh' sounds and the like.

Of course its a mix of 'word like sounds' and accents that are picked up from TV, travel etc.
My personal favourite is when you can hear a LotR fan who is clearly making 'Elvish' sounds.
Ive heard 'Hebrew Klingon' too.

Years ago some language experts (Norm Chomsky types) secretly recorded a collection of 'speaking in tongues'.
None of them were an example of xenoglossalia in which a known language was being spoken.
None.
Of the examples they did collect, none of them were anywhere close to qualifying as a language at all!
Just 'babble' or really a series of 'noises' sometimes with breaks between them 'as if' a 'new word' was being said.

Besides, in this day and age we have the revealed texts, we have the Gospel in almost every language.
There isnt the need for such a supernatural tool as there was right in the very first days of the Church.

 

thats funny sometimes you still come off as a teenager

what you are trying using as examples is Glossolalia which is repeative syllablas etc etc etc. What I'm defending is Xenoglossolalia..Now the thing you'd have to prove is what you heard Glossolalia or Xenoglossolalia... I for one think your uncapable of doing that in a civil manner but please, prove me wrong

 

Now before you take and run with the defenitons of those two words. What about the post before that?

 

Well I would definately be able to stand another account where someone says they heard someone else speaking a known language.
Ive heard a few more of those than I have claims someone in some third world village claims someone raised the dead.
I bring that up because if you going to use Acts as an instruction then lets raise some dead people too.
After all its 'Biblical' right?

I have only heard one story which I would consider fairly trustworthy but even it is quite possibly an honest mistake.
A fairly reputable Pastor claimed he had once a conversation with a foreign exchange student.
They had a great discussion about the Gospel of Christ, Salvation, New Life and so on.
Leaving the room and later meeting up with a Costa Rican student who was the only other person in the room she says:
I was amazed how perfectly fluent your Spanish is, for an American!
He said he did not know spanish.
She says, yes you spoke to the Costa Rican student while I was there and your spanish was perfect!

Now, even here I wonder if there was a misunderstanding.
Perhaps he pronounced his name and used words like 'Costa Rica' or repeated his homotown etc.
When he did use THOSE spanish words he pronounced them correctly.
(I have been told this myself since many native speakers are surprised I can pronounce their names or placenames perfectly (with a bit of a Columbian accent even)
So was the Pastor actually misunderstanding her when he walked away thinking that she meant he spoke the entire convo in Spanish... but instead she just meant a few words which he repeated or said?

I would, for once like to hear something more than a story like "It does.. this guy I know at Church said that he was there when another guy ...."
Never a verifiable account.

Even if someone does give me a believeable account (like this Pastors story) and one I can see as a legitimate use and purpose for the gift of tongues... it still doesnt change the fact that the other 100 times it goes on, its silly and psychosomatic.

Dont even get me started on this ridiculous 'Prophecy' business.. the next logical step if you want to follow the Tongues business.
Snake handling should be in there too actually.
Thats next Im sure.

 

First of Prophecy technicaly means "to boldy declare the word of God"

Also did you not read my post? I'm not going to hand you the same answers over and over

 

Are you sure thats what Prophecy means or is this just what Charismatic leaders keep telling you?
When you say the word of God, do you mean the word we already have revealed to us or some new revelation from God.
Both?

Yes, I read your post.
Im not really asking you any questions but feel free to chip in with whatever suggestions you want.
Comments?