Let's see. Suppose there's a 60 year old grandmother, walking down the street with a bag of groceries. She weighs 120 lbs or so. Up comes a bad guy. Bad guy weighs 295 or so, runs 3 miles a day. He's studied Brazilian Jiu jitsu, Muay Thai, and Aikido. What is to stop him from doing whatever he wants, taking whatever he wants from her? In England, a cop, if one is around. In Oregon, that grandmother is likely to have a .357 in her coat pocket. One or two shots, and chances are that bad guy will never trouble society again. No more rapes, no more robberies, no more taxpayer money being spent on a viscious animal. And grandma gets to go home and spend time with her grandbabies. Where I live, around 50% of the people carry concealed or *GASP!* non concealed handguns. There was one murder in my county last year. Death by strangulation. Even the druggies here are polite. An armed society is a polite society. When you might have to back up your words with lead, it pays to be polite. A gun is an equalizer. It's a tool, plain and simple. Tools can be used for great good, or great evil. A shotgun slug will easily penetrate most walls, possibly killing people on the other side, as will most rifle rounds. In addition, a shotgun for home defense will often be loaded with 00 Buckshot. This means about nine .38 caliber pellets come out of the barrel. I'd rather be responsible for one bullet than 9. A bullet fired from a handgun will penetrate most walls as well, but will have expended more of its energy, therefore making it less likely to injure or kill an innocent victim. If anyone breaks into my home, chances are I will never fire a shot. I have 260+ lbs of dog as an early warning system. However, I'd rather have a gun and never need it, than need a gun, and not have it. Tazers do not work on all subjects. Fact. I will not trust my child's life to an electrical shock generator. I have a duty to keep her safe from harm, and a handgun is the best way to do that. Governments are well known for slaughtering unarmed people. I'd just as soon not trust in the benevolence of people like that. Middle ages? Guns weren't exactly common in the middle ages. Actually, in the middle ages, whoever had the most men with pointy sticks was the guy in charge, and he got to do whatever he liked to people. Heroin? It used to be available over the counter here. It didn't start being a problem until it was prohibited. The problem is bad people. Bad people don't care what laws are passed. They will continue to do as they wish. Taking away handguns from honest people only ensures a target rich environment for criminals. As for keeping guns out of the hands of criminals? Impossible. To do so would require a police state the likes of which you never dreamed. The technology is out there, and it is simple. Right now, I could go into most of your houses, and easily fashion a simple firearm from materials at hand. The material for the projectiles is easily available, as well. Primer and propellant can be found or produced easily, from common materials. The genie can't be put back in the bottle, folks. We have a war on drugs here in the US. It isn't working. In fact, several corrections officers I know tell me they can't keep drugs and weapons out of the hands of prisoners. Up to and including firearms. If this is true in a PRISON, how will gun control keep guns away from criminals on the street? Hunting is barbaric and cruel? Most hunters I've known do their best to make sure the animal dies quickly, with as little pain as possible. They practice regularly, to make sure a bad shot doesn't cause an animal to die a lingering, painful death. The animal lives free, in its natural habitat until the moment of its death. Much better than what happens to creatures caught up in the food industry. Cramped conditions, poor air circulation, unsanitary stalls, and never a glimpse of sunshine. Led into a confined area to be bludgeoned to death. Yeah, before you try taking the moral high ground, be sure you actually have some, eh? Gun control is not about guns. It's about CONTROL.
So your man that runs 3 miles a day, weighs 295lb and knows loads of marshall arts is going to be done over by Granny Smith. By the time shes opened her purse, fumbled around, moved the keys, dropped her hankey, accidentally dropped the gun and shot herself in the leg the guy has picked her up and thrown her in the nearest skip. I bet you are the kind of person that says "if someone breaks into my house at 3 in the morning I'll knock him over the head with a baseball bat". 3 am in the morning, burglar awake, you very sleepy. By the time you've had to go to the bathroom, yawned, tripped over the cat and walked down the stairs the burglar has taken your TV, dvd player and your cd collection. (unless he is violent then he'll just knock you on the head and take what he wants). I would trust the police to catch that 295lb guy. We do have armed police over here but not every officer carries a gun. Lets face it the last time one did a brazilian guy got shot and there was an uproar. guns aren't that easy to obtain over here and there is very little gun crime. Check the facts and figures if you want. as for hunting there is another flaw.... you said hunters practise regularly to make sure they hit their targets in the right place. Being that they are practising they must get it wrong when they first start hunting and occasionally when they are experienced. Therefore the animal doesn't die immediately does it.
Every time someone says that the homicide rate in the US is higher than anywhere else is failing to grasp a simple concept. The US has 300 million people, along with many large cities. While you compare them to relatively small countries.
No matter what, if that granny isn't armed, she's going to get robbed, chances are there isn't a cop around to defend her. So why isn't she allowed to defend herself. I've got a pager in my room for the Volunteer Fire Department, and if that goes off in the middle of the night, I'm up and ready to go in less than a minute, so why can't I be up and ready to go when that guy comes into my house. Hunters practice on targets, its easy. And if that hunter fucks up the first shot and the animal is wounded but not dying, he'll shoot again. Trust me, every single person I've hunted with will feel bad if they clip an animal, but it's able to get away, but if it doesn't suffer, than they are happy.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/city.htm Changes in homicide trends have been driven by changes in the number of homicides in large American cities From 1976-2002 -- Over half of the homicides occurred in cities with a population of 100,000 or more Almost one-quarter of the homicides occurred in cities with a population of over 1 million To view data, click on the chart. [D] Note: Large cities have a population of 100,000 or more while small cities have a population of less than 100,000. Certain homicide types vary by size of place For the years 1976-2002 combined, large cities are - much more commonly the site of drug-related and gang-related killings relatively less likely to be the location of family-related and work-related homicides Homicide Type by Urbanicity, 1976-2002 Percent of all homicides All homicides Large city 57.3% Small city 11.4% Suburban 20.9% Rural 10.4%
Gary, Most women who carry a handgun for protection don't carry in a purse. I wouldn't expect you to know that, not having experience with concealed carry. Handguns are typically carried(by honest citizens, atleast) in a well made holster worn on the waist area, a shoulder holster, or in a coat or pants pocket. Here in Oregon, it's cold off and on year round, so lots of women carry a revolver in their coat paocket. Most likely, at the start of aggression, granny would shoot through her coat poacket, or draw from her holster into a high retention position, and her attacker would stop. As for practicing, have you ever heard of target ranges? That's where people practice. Not on live animals. A baseball bat? No, I would respond to an intruder at 3 AM with .45 caliber hollowpoints. If it got that far. As I said, I have dogs. Dogs who know who belongs here and who doesn't. Locks can be picked, alarm wires can be cut, police can be late. A firearm isn't a perfect solution, but I'd rather have an active role in my own defense, and that of my family. In case I'm attacked, I'd rather be holding a gun than a phone. The police, in most cases, are simply historians of a sort. They show up afterwards, and write down what happened.
Generally, I come wide awake within a few seconds. If somebody really wants my DVD player, TV, and CD collection, he can have it. It's insured, and replaceable. If he wants my daughter or my wife, he'll get the aforementioned hollowpoint bullets.
so what about columbine? We haven't had that happen over here. Why? Noone has guns, therefore its very hard for kids to get hold of them.
OK, that is an incredibly biased statement. Think about it. We've had public schools in the US for over 100 years, and one shooting. Just because it happened recently, it's overplayed.
What about Columbine? The weapons those kids had were illegal for them to possess. It was illegal for them to bring those weapons to school, and it was illegal for them to kill people. More evidence that mentally disturbed criminals will not obey the laws of the land. What about attempted school shootings here in America where the subjects were halted by a teacher or other citizen, carrying a concealed handgun? For decades now, anti gun groups have been screaming about "blood in the streets" whenever pro gun legislation was passed. So far, it hasn't happened. It didn't happen when concealed carry legislation was passed, it hasn't happened since the "assault weapons" ban expired.
Armed people kill thousands of innocent Palestinians, and shall be hated for that in the pages of history. Disarmed victims will be morned for forevermore. The armed people have also turned the star of david into the new swastika. www.stop-us-military-aid-to-israel.net/photo_index1.html Thats what your armed people do with their armements
Hey, you get no arguement from me on foreign aid. I fel the US should stop military aid to anyone. We need to just butt out, and worry about our own problems for a while. The potential for misuse exists with anything, be it a weapon or not. However, the fact is, when people are disarmed by their governments, history has shown that genocide is the result. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler and others. All of them murdered their people after disarmament laws ensured defensless victims.
I despise guns. I posted about this in some thread about 6 months ago i think. I cant be bothered to have my arguments shot down again. Nobody should have a gun in their home.
If the subject is so tiresome, don't read it. Simple. If your arguments keep getting shot down, either the audience is unreceptive, or they simply aren't very good arguments. I see a basic difference in personality types on this thread. The people who believe guns should be legal simply want to be left alone. We aren't asking that anybody be required to own a gun. If you don't like guns, hey, fine. Don't own any. Move to somewhere where guns are outlawed or heavily restricted. There's plenty of choices. The people who want guns outlawed are trying to impose their will on others, through force of government. Congratulations. You're in fine company, with folks like Hitler, Stalin, etc. They all believed in civilian disarmament, too.
There are only so many times you can present a valid argument and have it trampled all over, before you just get tired. And my arguments are valid. I have my reasons, and i think long and hard before giving opinions about any matter. Im sure there are examples on this forum and on others where i have given my opinion and defended it fiercely, again and again, repeating my reasoning, my justification, my motives...but where it has also had no effect. As for them not being "good" arguments...because the majority does not agree with them? "move to somewhere where they are outlawed"...I live in Europe. No guns in regular, sane peoples cupboards here, thank God. With the exception of the odd rich hunter or farmer. "Hitler, Stalin, blah"...Hitler was also a vegetarian like me, and shared my fondness for dogs. My God, i really AM the devil! I just wanted to give a quick opinion, thats all, as it seemed better than giving nothing at all, and better than wasting my energy again. Maybe that was wrong.
It's Fair to cut n paste in multiple (duplicate) Threads addressing the same Issues. HF seems to have more than its fair share of duplications...*c*
Ha! Touche! Really, verseau, you seem like an intelligent young woman, from the posts I've read. However, I've noticed that you tend to make broad, sweeping statements on how things should be, when you have no knowledge of the way other people live. IE, "People shouldn't own more than one car", "People shouldn't own guns". If you don't like it, don't do it. It is wrong to impose one's will upon another. Unless someone is causing actual harm to you or another person with their behavior, it is wrong to make their decisions for them.
I think this may be a culture thing..... We don't have guns in the UK, Canada etc and we live perfectly fine without them. In the US you obviously live perfectly fine with them. I just happen to believe in the ideal situation that if there were no guns noone could ever get shot. You all seem to represent the self defence thing as a good cause for owning a gun. So if you get mugged in the street you can pull a gun on the mugger. If he doesn't have a gun and comes at you anyway and you shoot him doesn't that count as murder? (killing an unarmed man. Unless the man is threatening your life, which he can't unless he has a knife or deadly weapon of some kind). I think if you carry a gun you run the risk of falling into a grey area whereby you shoot someone and its not necessarily counted as self defence.
According to the Australian Parliamentary Library, there are estimated to be 3.5 million firearms in OZ. In a survey a few years ago, 90% of Aussies spoken to agreed that firearms should be banned In 2002 it was found that there was 1.5 per 100,000 deaths relating to firearms. After the Port Arthur Massacre in 1996 in Tasmania, parliament passed the firearm buy back scheme. Almost 800,000 gun owners gave back their guns.
