how much do you really love and care about animals???

Thank you for clearing that up.

I have two leather coats. A light on and a heavy one.

I have two leather belts, not sure why.

I have one pair of leather boots, but I work construction and $200 hemp workboots have a 4 day life expectancy on my jobsite. So I buy cheaper leather safety boots.

All of these items are fairly common cowhide.

OTOH, I have quite a bit of leather in my garb kit. I am a 5th century Celtic Reenactor, and I wear a lot of raw leather and some bones, skulls, antlers.

When I said I operated a rescue, it was strictly reptiles. I like mammals only slightly more than I like humans, which isn't much. Insects serve two purposes. To irritate me and to feed to smaller reptiles. Rodentia serve two purposes: to carry diseases that will hopefully kill many humans and to feed to larger reptiles. Humans serve one purpose: to irritate me.

Yeah, you can say I have a chip on my shoulder. You'll get used to it.

We currently have no pets but we are working with a rescue to get a puppy. Only because I'm hoping it will mellow me a bit, and my family has waited a while for it. Then again, the Molurus Bivittatus will be brooding soon...

 

PS - the name is Zoomie, the pic is a zombie. I don't know why.

 

I also love animals, but still I think it is natural for humans to eat meat. After all, we're only animals too, and do you want to tell me that a lion should stop eating meat, because it's so cruel? I for one try to eat vegetarian as often as possible, but sometimes I just fancy meat, and then I will buy it - however I always try to get meat from animals that have been treated well. I do not buy meat from mass transports, usually just try to buy local stuff. Same with eggs and milk/milk products. I would rather cut my own hand off than eat battery eggs, or drink milk from a cow that's never seen the sky.
I do wear leather shoes sometimes, just because the quality is better and they last longer, but as a previous poster said, those animals don't get killed just for the leather, but the rest is used too.
I think you can overdo everything, even love to animals. I think it's great if you can stick to your vegan/vegetarian diet, if it works for you - but I don't need people telling me what's right or wrong, you have your opinion, I have mine. i love animals, but will still eat them now and then.

 

I agree entirely that animals should not be eaten by animal "lovers".
Basic ethics - dissent - if a guy kicks you he's non-verbally requested that you take that steak knife out of him. How is a cow any different? It isn't.

Some people are just more interested in being selfish and maintaining their comfortable status quo than actually loving animals in any practical sense.

Lions and YOU do not share one important capacity: the ability to choose not to be cruel. A lion will always be a meat-eater, but you are smarter than a lion, even if you choose not to be. "Nature" has given you a great gift, namely that you do not have to be a self-serving bastard in the name of nutrition. Your call.

People affect other people and their habitats too, but I don't see us resorting to cannibalism. What you're saying doesn't justify putting a simpler mind - completely capable of fear nonetheless - to death. Silly-silly.

I'm not trying to be intolerant here, far from it, I'm trying to be more tolerant than a meat-eater who is intolerant of an animal's rights and desires.

 

"You eat plants, yet plants are living things too. so, do they "deserve" to die any less than animals do, because they're plants?"

This was a quote from an argument quite like this one, from another message board. I though it was interesting.

 

Plants are usually not tortured to the extent that animals raised for their meat are.
I'm kind to plants, but I need to eat them to survive, so I eat them.
I'm kind to animals, but I don't need to eat them to survive, so I don't eat them.
Also, by eating most fruits and vegetables you don't actually kill the plant itself.

 

Moreover, what evidence is there that plants have anything more than physiological reactions to things? It may sound very clinical and non-spiritual, but insofar as any evidence suggest plants cannot really "experience" in any self-reflective sense. Where are their brains? Where is their central nervous system? Where is their consciousness?

Excuse me for being dogmatic, but terms like "deserve" seem about as applicable to plants as they do to rocks, coins, and ipod-minis. I think it's sensible to stick with protecting those things that we KNOW can suffer, and face talking trees when we come to that bend in the road.

 

"Some people are just more interested in being selfish and maintaining their comfortable status quo than actually loving animals in any practical sense."


is this statement not true of vegans/vegetarians also? I guess "practical sense" is the key words.

 

Is there a debate going on here? Can someone fill me in on it please, cos from reading the thread it seems people are just talking about their personal views on animals.

 

Yes, on the surface it seems that way. If you read it again they are telling the omnivores that they don't really care about their own pets because they continue to consume other animals.

The judgemental attitude is totally Ingrid, totally predictable.

 

Hmm..... Well we don't need meat to be healthy. So everytime we eat it, we cause the unnecessary suffering of an animal.

 

no i think they are saying that when people who claim to be animal lovers go about their lives eating meat and wearing leather and *supporting* the exploitation of animals.....it means that they are basically animal lovers untill it becomes inconvienent to be. saying you love dogs but then eating cows for lunch isnt being an animal lover....its being a dog lover and consistent with the western culture we were born into where everyone loves their "pets" but doesnt give a fuck about the other animals on earth. just like there are laws to protect animals from cruelty but they dont extend to "livestock". its total bullshit. why should we get to choose which creatures are important or which creatures are deserving of love and respect? again....total bullshit

 

The thing is, it's easy to go eat a cow when you buy it wrapped in plastic without a face. It's disguised. The markets don't play the fact that its an animal.

 

i love animals alot!!

 

kinda like how most vegetarians dont give a flying fuck about the animals that die under the turbines? How many animals suffer so we can eat vegetables/fruits/grains and other shit? A lot.

"But, but, but, i dont intend to kill them..and i'm limiting suffering by not eating meat"

You're doing it to a level that you're comfortable with, just like everyone else. Killing fewer animals doesn't some how make you better morally or otherwise.

 

its not a vegan world. its impossible to be vegan all the way. i respect people who atleast do SOMETHING to eliminate animal suffering and push foward the vegan way of life. people who do nothing but then claim that they love animals...total bullshit. love and respect go hand in hand. and unless all vegans are in a position to grow their own food on their own land they will have to continue to buy their veggies from the market.........things can change just one step at a time. we are still working on the first few steps here.
i dont know how many vegans are able to do such a thing but in the consumer and commercial driven world we've inherited, most of us are not able to grow our own food. therefore we do what we can with what we are given which is a wonderful thing. i dont respect apathy. its not a race to see who is more "moral"....thats childish and doesnt do a damn thing for the cause. i.e.........no one cares.

doing it to a level im comfortable with? well i'll tell you im a hell of alot more comfortable knowing that MY existence is a concious one and that if i have to cause death and suffering to survive that its as few an amount as i can possibly do. doing someones best is better than doing nothing. period.

 

Exactly.

What is doing something? Someone who eats one less chicken breast a year? Vegetarians/vegans? Convenient that the line usually gets drawn to exactly where you(in a vague sense) are at.

What, you cant love a dog and eat a cow? Thats silly. You love animals yet are complicit in the murder of god knows how many every year. Is that not total bullshit?

There are 6 billion people on this earth. Just imagine that we all did grow our fruits/veggies/grains, do you honestly believe that NO animals will die in the production of food? That NO animals will be displaced by us? Animals are displaced by everything we do. By our houses, by our roads, by our hospitals and YES, by our vegetable farms.

All animals directly or indirectly 'battle' each other for resources. Some species win(gather more resources), others dont (starve..are displaced..etc). This is just life.

Apathy? Is that how vegetarians overlook that their own food supply kills countless animals every year?

If that lets you sleep at night, i'm glad. Listen to your rhetoric. You live a conscious life? Let me guess, only enlightened vegetarians/vegans live a conscious life and everyone else is just a sheep going through life? Fact of the matter is, vegetarians/vegans are probably LESS conscious than omnis. Its not hard to figure out that eating a hamburger means a cow died. When you eat a nice vegetarian sandwhich, do you ever stop to think that some little chipmunk, mole, mouse, snake, or whatever was brutally killed, tortured so you could eat that meat? Heck, worst of all, that meat isnt even used by individuals. Thats just pure waste.

I know vegans/vegetarians justify their actions with a line like "but i'm doing what i can to limit suffering." Well, yeah, you are, but you are doing it only to a level that you are comfortable with. You may be responsible for the death of say 10 animals every year. A meateater say 15. Are you somehow better than him because you killed 5 less animals? are you proud that your way of life murdered/tortured 5 less animals every year? It just seems a tad bit silly to me. Then again, i'm sure somethings i believe in are silly to other people.

Sorry to come down so hard on you, but this holier-than-thou syndrome that a significant portion of vegans/vegetarians have is rather annoying.

 

meh, this fucking debate is so old around here and ive had it recently with a few others so spare me.

anyway, yeah....of course just being alive is going to displace/kill some animals....thats of course obvious. but as you've said already (so i guess i dont have to say it really) vegans make a concious effort to reduce that amount a great deal and every animal counts.....therefore if i save just one every year im totally happy with that so long as i know im doing everything in my power not to support suffering....in my power being the key words here. pretty simple stuff

oh and i cant remember exactly but ive read that vegan are responsible for saving the lives of around 200 animals per year. thats totally off the top of my head though and i really dont care enough to go getting numbers off the web for you

 

As far as doing something for the welfare of animals, I believe veganism is one of the easiest and effective means. And I do believe that it would be possible for the world to be vegan. Most crops in the world are just grown to feed animals which feed us.