White non-muslim women wearing the Hijab?

I have to say - it always surprises me a little bit to know Johny2mad is an Atheist (or at least an Agnostic) because I find a lot more ability to comprehend the issues and concepts than I see in most of the Internet 'Atheists' who crap about in internet forums.

I will say this much - Muhammed is most definately a Pedophile if you accept the Haddiths which are explicit and clear about this.
Having said that..
When I bring this up with Muslims, Im usually told this is total nonsense and they do not accept these Hadiths as anything more than fictional stories and are not to be taken along with the Koran.

 

thank you erasmus

you need to tell them that one of the main people who told us about mohammed was aisha (in fact one of the arguments for marrying her so young was that she had such a good memory and was able to remember so much ).
she was seen as a great source, as well as being the person involved in these specif haddith .

if they dont believe in aishas young marriage, they are rejecting haddith in at least two of the most respected books of haddith , haddith that have been seen as sahih authentic for many centurys .

really if they think that it could happen that these are false pretty much anything could have happened including miss-transmission of the quran .

without the haddith you have no or very little early islamic history , you dont have the sunnah .

aisha marriage is a tricky thing for muslims and I dont mind which way they play it if they reject that it ever happened you have the effect that would have on other scripture and doctrine .

if they accept it mohammed was a pedophile


interesting
http://www.secularislam.org/research/origins.htm

 

You cant label someone a pedophile if marriage to girls so young is the social norm.
Mohammed did nothing unusual, and cant be singled out. The whole country were pedophiles for that matter.

Joseph was a pedophile too then huh?

 

Aisha's age is also disputed, some say she was 9, but also some say she was 14. Muhammed didnt consumate the marriage immediatly, and that age was much larger than it is now. consider the fact the the average life span was no greater than about 30, therefore making 15 middle aged. It was also the norm of most societies to men as old as Muhammed to marry women as young as Aisha, which makes sense if you consider the way of life back then. it was brutally violent, and many men were killed before adulthood, those that survived had the pleasure of marriage. they had to marry young women so they could have as many children as possible so that some would survive, and humanity could continue. this was not just the arabs, but everyone. when muhammed and islam came about, these harsh conditions became far less dire, consider the status of the pre-islamic arabs, they had little and were divided into ruthless tribes. After Muhammed, the Arabs became the most advanced society in the world, giving the world countless advances in mathematics, science, and especially medicine. is Muhammed just a lucky coincidence?

 

I could say she was 90 ,she says in her own words in lots of places that she married when she was 8 thats the most widely accepted age, but if you want to say shes a different age you have to accept that that calls into question just about everything in the haddith and destroys the sunnah.


Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.


Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).


Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).


Sahih Bukhari 8:151, Narrated 'Aisha: "I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet , and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, Book 58, Number 234 Narrated 'Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).

Other hadith in Bukhari repeat this information.
you also have mohammed dreaming about her being brought to him carried wrapped up, which makes me think hes thinking of a very young child .


and if joseph married a little child as young as 6 he was a pedophile to .

one of the things you need to take into account is that mohammed is seen as the last prophet and someone who people follow in every detail of his life .

so for example muslims cut their beard like mohammed pray like him and his example of having sex with children is also followed in many countrys .
khomeni I think had a 12 year old wife , I can think of some other clerics who are being tlked to today as moderate in the west who have child wives .

 

and mohammed didnt advance the arabs at the moment me and some friends are setting up a site that de-bunks these popular myths .

basically islam held back all the people who were conquered by it ,achievements that are claimed to be islamic came mostly from the countrys that muslims conquered and enslaved .

when the sites finished I will put up links and also links to sites that promote the wonders of "islamic" science and culture and you can make up your own mind

 

ok, Socrates, Plato, Alexander, and many many more from the classical age are peadophiles too by modern standards. should we throw away their accomplishments as well?

 

Where does your hatred of Islam stem from, jonny? why do you not tolerate the beliefs of muslim people? you dont, because you keep on putting numerous posts up basically calling what a 6th of the world believes as evil and false.

 

AMEN!!

 

When you believe in a religion you have a number of things that appear to you to be signs or proofs that the religion and its prophets are genuine, but I believe what you need to do is also make up a list of things that put the case that what your being told is false and the religion is fake.


You need to have critical thinking


As I understand it Socrates, Plato, Alexander, are not held up as examples of the most moral man, they didn’t claim to be the last prophet or prophets at all.


If you wish to disprove Mohammed’s claim to be a prophet you have to look for things like a lack of foresight, how could he not know that marrying a 6 year old would be thought questionable in the future if he was a prophet.


also how could Allah choose such a man and encourage him to marry a little child , is this best practice for all time, if its not what does it say about Allah’s judgement .


I would say looking at biology and psychological development that a child of 6 is two young to get married to a man in his 50s, I wouldn’t want my 6 year old daughter marrying a man that old.


If marrying little children when your old enough to be their grandfather isn’t best practice now and for all time, why did Allah get Mohammed to do it .


years ago people enjoyed watching gladiatorial combat even if it was popular to do so at the time, what would it say about a god who chose someone who enjoyed watching people kill each other people for his last prophet .


Wouldn’t it be saying that god approved of people watching people kill each other for other people’s amusement.


it isn’t just the marrying a little child when he was a old man , he also made it a rule that none of his former wives should re-marry aisha was 18 when he died and spent the rest of her life alone .


Joseph is a minor character in Christian theology imagine if it said in the new testament that jesus had had a sexual relationship with a child of six and you have some idea of the importance of the relationship between mohammed and aisha and yet you don’t hear that much about it , it’s the skeleton in the closet .


you also have his example as a man who traded in slaves …….is slavery best practice should keeping and buying and selling slaves be legal today if not why didn’t allah choose someone who didn’t buy and sell people .


Why didn’t he at some point say no more keeping slaves no more buying and selling them


The weak haddith defence that trys to disprove Mohammed’s marriage to a girl old enough to be his grand daughter


Doesn’t hold up



Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim collections are considered to be authentic historical records by orthodox Muslims. So, a weak hadith defence is unjustified when these sources are used to critique Muhammad sayings and behaviour.

A weak hadith technically refers to the chain of narrators (isnad), reputation of the narrators, and the text of narration (matn). Even if there were a technical flaw in a hadith, it does not necessarily mean that the hadith is not an authentic one. Authenticity and weakness are two different concepts.

The Qur'an has less technical support for its authenticity than do many hadiths. Yet, it is considered authentic by traditional Muslims. So, if an historical saying must be rejected because it is technically weak, then much of the Qur'an would have to be rejected too.

Some Muslims use the weak hadith defence, because they approach Muhammad with their own wishful presuppositions. So, they automatically reject any hadith that does not meet the standard of their uncritical assumptions. Our beliefs should be grounded in historical reality: not wishful assumptions.

The third standard (matn) to judge the authenticity of a hadith is an illegitimate standard. Present-day beliefs don't determine the events of the past. )


I live in the uk and British Muslims hounded a British author into hiding back in the 1980s I had the "pleasure" to be caught up in a demonstration against Salman Rushdie, I have never seen so much pure hatred in my life .


I see Islam as a target first because Islam attacked salman Rushdie in my country and therefore effected my freedom of speech , also apart from Rushdie Muslims have been killing other critics of Islam for example Theo van Gogh in Europe


That and the Iranian revolution where some of my best friends had to leave Iran, because you had the introduction of sheria law, made me see something of what Islam is and that even if I live in somewhere like the uk Im going to be effected by it .


The more I looked into Islam the worse things became, in the Islamic world you have widespread discrimination against non-Muslims where you don’t it isn’t because of the influence of Islam because Islam of its self promotes discrimination against non Muslims .


The end goal is the destruction of the non Muslim world , this can be achieved in many ways offensive war or the gradual islamisation of society .


Really I should set up a thread on the concept of dhimmitude and the dhimmi and the treatment of religious minority’s in Islamic country’s because it’s a very big subject to go into.


You ask me to be tolerant of Muslims beliefs in their scripture they kill people for just not believing in god or Mohammed being a prophet, so why the hell should I respect their beliefs


Quite a number of my friends who are ex-Muslim have to pretend to still be Muslim in case they are killed by Muslims often by members of their own family, in lots of Islamic countries it is illegal to convert to another religion, or to preach another religion or lack of religion to a Muslim you can be killed for doing so.

if they show no tolerance why should they expect any

You have the mass media that’s happy to spread the lie that Islam is basically peaceful and all the terrorism has nothing to do with the religion at all, but war and killing critics of Mohammed has always been a part of Islam

But the terrorism is just part of what’s going on there is also the constant war to impose Islamic law and to gradually islamise society that if anything is more dangerous.

 

Hello every one,

This is my 1st post in this forum. I hope we will get along and understand each other better.
I have been reading through and I found many ppl made just statment about Islam, yet, they are not muslims but they actuelly have seen this goodness through the acts of muslims.
Now every one should be awear that also muslims may be the reason why u missjudge this relegion.

I'm Muslim and I respect the right of any one to say whatever he/she want to say. although it has been implied several times in previous posts that as a Muslim I'm supposed to be intolerent, rejecting ppls right to talk, critique creativly and just deny other's right of anything except being muslim!!!.

I'm not this stupid and my relegion doesn't teach me so.

I'm not a scholar of Islam nor I'm in Islamic studies. and I'm not gonna be working on this forum day and night bcz basicly i have no time for this. But I believe I have enough knoledge about my relegion to defend against points that have been rosen against islam and to live my life in an Islamic way that is affecting my life positively and hopefully in the hereafter .

I hope ppl see that Muslims actuelly think creativly and they aren't stupid to follow a relegion as described in this forum. it is hard to say there are 1.6 billion stupid beings on the earth.

I'm not willing to stay in a long term argument here. I want a creative discussion where some one can accept the fact that he/she was wrong and got benifit of the discussion. This is my ambition in this forum and i hope i reach it.

Jonny2mad, I think creatively about my relegion and I'm not muslim because i was told to be so or because i would have been killed otherwise. I live in Canada and I could have lift Islam very safely if i wanted to:

The prophet -peace be upon him- didn't marry Aisha when she was 6 but rather god told him that she is going to be his wife (chose her for him if u will) when she was at that age and thus he told her and her father. so she was kind of engaged to him. and it was only till she -may god be pleased with her- reached pubirty at the age of 9 when he married her.
and if u don't belive she reached pubirty at that age then you lack scientific knowledge. if she had have reached it after that she would have been older than nine when actuelly got marrid
and as you were saying, a man in the 50's shouldn't have a desire towards a girl in her age. (for certain wisdom god chose her for his prophet)

Lets think creativly then.
Who was Aisha?? she is the one that narrated the highest number of the Hadiths of the prophet -peace be upon him- more than all the other companians men and women except Abo Hurayra. She is the one who tought the generation of the great scholars of Islam after the prophit's death, men and women...

... she was the only one of the prophet's wives who Quran was revealed to the prophet in her house. she is a mother of the believers and thats why no one can marry her afterward or any of the mothers of the believers -prophet's wives-. Now, Mohammad -peace be upon him- didn't prevent them himself!! God told him and they were told this before they get married and they accepted. you should remeber that they were convinced he was a prophit. It is because of their honour and high place among the Muslims and because of the tremndous respect and love to the prophet that muslim men wouldn't feel comfortable even if it was allowed to marry them after his death. imagine this happened you could have been talking about it in this forum now?!
if u analyse, she was 18 when the prpphet died. so she lived so long after him and tought so much of Islam that is brought to us today. which i think was the wisdom of the prophet marrying her in young age _not 6 though_ which was known by god. something i learn from this is men get to be tought by woman so they actuelly have the right learn and teach men. and they do have to learn and be educated.

Aisha is the one whom the prophet said about "Aisha" when he was asked; who do you love the most? by one of the companians. she told us how the prophet used to clean his own clothes, fix his shoe, help her in home things and take care of her.

if you really wanna get something out of this read about Aisha (I'm suggesting non-anti-islamic sources)... she played with him, raced him, disagreed with him in life issues -peace be upon him-. she wasn't a skeleton in a closet!!!, there are peapl who converted to Islam because they have been studying the life of the prophet from his wives' prospective arguing that if he was acting he was a prophet then his wives should know he is not because usually wives are the ones that know mostly all the hidden things of their husbands. The prophet was the 1st one to give wives the name "lord of the house" and it is used now even by non-muslims in arabia.

who said this!! God did!?!? if there is a god as i believe, then he doesn't. get me a place in the quran where god says im pleased to see u kill each other....When u do, bring them in their context. cz Islam also teaches how to purify ur deads even if u r a soldire in a war. if u bring any thing from the quraan in their context i will not need to add anything. Indeed god say in a vurse in the Quran that i dont remember letrally which means if u kill someone without a reason it is as if you have killed all humans which means it is as bad as if u have killed all humans. hope is clear

And don't tell me that my relegion is a barbarian one because some ppl were killing each other. Islam doesn't say so.

The whole msg of Islam is about worshipping none but god. being a slave only for god.. Freeing humans from all kind of slaverity. begining from idolitry to even humilating an animal.
if u analyse: during that time, the world's biggest trade was slaverity. and what Islam did is in many places in the Quran.....free a slave, free a slave...if u do this sin or that and u wanna getrid of it, free a slave...you want high rewards, free a slave...and ppl weren't allowed to humilate their slaves by any means!! and the name slave was changed to mawla which means someone who works for someone else. AND the most important point is if that mawla brought the price he/she was bought by his/her master, he MUST free them by islamic law. and proudly i say Islam tought us that slaverty is only for god even way before ppl got more reasonable and stop slaverity. i would doubt if you were rich at that time and you weren't a good muslim you would have slave working for you. well America for example had slaverity not so far from now!! I hope it is clear now

This is how it goes:
a weak Hadith is the one that didn't have the criteria of being authintic or even good Hadith. mainly because of the Isnad which means some of the narrators was missing in the chain. or some of them was known to be a lier. and there is a whole feild of study of identifying Hadiths and narrators. you can enroll in one of them and only then you can defferintiate for sure between authintic and week.
week doesnt mean authintic nor good, which are the only ones Muslims use. for the Islamic laws ONLY athintic are used. while week and mawdooa' which is (lied) aren't accepted at all.

Qura'an was trasferred to us by hearts!! How: Quran was actuelly allowed for ppl and it was memorised even by youg children since it was revieled. in the same order ordered by god. it was collected in one book after the prophets death because of the need of copies of quran as it was on seperate sheats (wood or leather) at his time.
it is not comparable to the Hadith issure because there might be hadiths that only one companian is awear of, may be a coversation between him and the prophet -peace be upon him-. and throught the prophets life there are many things that he said and did and because the Hadith is (what the prophet said, did or accepted), there are lots of them that are not known by all ppl. so lots of rules and techniques were developped to identify what the prophet said for sure and what is not. while in the case of the quraan, lots of ppl have it all in heart.

the arabic word themmi means someone on your responsibility. some one on your themma means someone on your responsibilty. these are non-muslims cetizin of different islamic impires. they pay special taxes as u said in one of ur previous posts once every year for those who are able to pay..where muslims had and exact similar thing and some time they paymore because muslims have to pay 2.5% of mony that havent been used for a year to be given to poor which is the tradition of Zakat. while themmies only pay a fixed amount of money which want a big number.
The second Khalif, Omar bin alkhattab was walking in Almadinah and he saw an old jewish man asking for money and when he was asked by Omar he replied cz i want to pay the jezya which is what themmies pay. and since then Omar stopped it on ppl who aren't able to work and they got to be paied a salary from the mony of the Zakat and jezyah justlike retirement now. Now where does the Themma the responsibilty come? it is that you get protected you, your relegion, property and degnity. if these weren't accomplished then by Islamic laws a themmi person should get his mony back and this is exactly what happened with the jews in Syria when it was concored by crusadors, themoney was sent back to them with apologies of not being able to protect.
The prophet said " who ever kills a Moa'hid (thimmi) wont smill the smell of paradise for which its smell can be smelled froma distance of forty years" no.6516 Bukhari authintic Hadith book
so i hope it is clear.

In the Quran Allah -sobhanaho watala- says (No compulsion in the relegion) so if a Muslim at some point desided to be non-Muslims he/she is not to be killed. and if some ex-muslim's parents were feeling bad towards this, it is normal I no lots of new-Muslims who have been kicked out of their homes because of their choise so it doesn't have to do with muslims only and more importantly it doesnt have to do with Islam at all.
u mention a story earlier about a muslim leaving Islam is to be killed. This is completely Wrong and out of context as there was a special circumestance where it was the case at a short level of time and it was never applied and is never valid since after that ocassion.

 

tonny, welcome to the boards ..you've brought in some real interestin points i'll admit

jonny on the other hand has had the habit of comin up with absurd rhetoric without back-up and is very fond of usin islamic/arabic names to prove to the unsuspectors how learned he is when it comes to islam. he also tends to argue (not debate) by widenin the topics rather than stickin to the one bein discussed, puttin people off who'd rather not be bothered exhaustin their energy on someone whose drive seems to be one of hate, not the will to discuss/debate or even admit when he may go wrong and does

..he then justifies (to himself and others) how no one's been able to "debate" the topic with him over the years, which proves how right he is!

 

tonny2happy
johnny2mad

Hmm, what ever the case might be.. ^^

Asalamu Aleykum, from your brother Adam

 

stoney69 and cabdirazzaq

wa alikom assalam - and peace be upon you too- and on every one in the forum as well. thaks for welcoming me.

cabdirazzaq I chose tonny2happy as my name in this forum cz the 1st thing to read was from jonny2mad and his missunderstanding of some points made me paricipate in the forum so... I certainly don't mean my job here is jonny. So jonny2mad please don't take it personaly. I'm here to try and show things to you as understood by me as a Muslim who believes in his relegion and practices it (not very [font=&quot]knowledgeable[/font] though).

stoney69 I still don't want any one to have any missconceptions about the prophet of Islam and his msg begining with jonny2mad. It is always good to critique but when it comes to someone's faith and relegious symbols or believes the critique should be in a very nice and professional way not to cause any hatred and maybe raceism unintintionally or indirectly and thus loosing the point behind creative critiques.

peace every one.

 

The issue is that of tolerance. Tonny is a muslim who is tolerant of non-muslims. I am an agnostic tolerant of every religion that doesnt involve kool-aide. Jonny however seems to be intolerant of non-athiests.

 

wouldn't it be better if we could all work towards tolerance of individuals and respectin humanity

 

This is totally untrue!

hijab or scarves are usually a choice of the woman herself, not imposed by anyone. When i wore it, it was my personal desicion, i even struggled to wear it in the high school although i live in an islamic country, Egypt!
My mom rejected the idea, but accepted it afterwards.

The notion of that muslim woman are oppressed and hijab is imposed on them is a misconception in the west!

There is a difference between being critical of others' religion and being rude or insulting. If you discussed Islamin an objective way, you wont have any threats!

 

"Saudi" Arabia has a lot of its laws and policies based on the Wahabi sect of Islam, which is a radical sect of Sunni Islam. This is not true Islam, nor by any stretch of the imagination is it a representation of most Islam. Wahabism is relatively new (started in the 18th or 19th century if I am not mistaken) and comprises few members (and much power) when compared to mainstream Islam. Thats why "Saudi" Arabia has many strict policies.