Does anyone really believe in peace?

I have read lots of anti-war threads on here and I'm amazed.

Isn't peace just a figment of our imaginations.

In an ideal world there would be no war, no corruption, everyone would be nice to each other and the suicide rate would soar.

Peace isn't going to happen just because people say don't shoot me and I won't shoot you. The worst possible day was the day when the gun was invented.

So without peace what can we have. We can have as much stability as possible and in the world from time to time there will be war as is a playground two kids will fight.

I don't want people to die any more than any of you but at the same time if someone comes up to me in the pub and throws a punch at me I'm going to throw one right back.

If you think thats wrong then so be it. I'm not pro war but I accept that it happens in the same way I accept earthquakes, volcanoes erupting, tornados, hurricanes, avalanches and tsunamis.

The US and Britain will leave Iraq when the powers that be feel it is safe to do so. Until then hold on tight.

There will be more terror attacks in the same way there will be plane crashes not caused by anything in particular.

Don't just say the words "let there be peace", stop the people creating the wars. If to do that you need violence then so be it.

 

Thats all very lovely. But have you ever heard the phrase "The universe isn't fair but people can be". War is often inevitable, but we as so called "civilised" and "freedom living" western countries should be able to tell the difference between a just war and war based on lies and vested interest.

A lot of us aren't protesting against war, we're protesting against THIS horrible war. If you think this war is fought in the name of peace, stop watching TV

 

I think Saddam Hussein had to go and I saw those planes hit the twin towers. (or did that not really happen and if it didn't happen where have the towers gone).

Also why did four bombs go off in july in London and what happened to the trains in Spain......

Why did the kids get killed in that Russian school......

The war maybe for the wrong reasons but the outcome could benefit everyone. Do you really think the US and UK should pull out now....

We are preparing to pull out later on this year when the Iraqi Security forces can cope. That doesn't sound like a load of propaganda to me. If we are still there in 5 years I'll agree with you but the chances are there will be less and less soldiers required every year.

You don't have to trust everyone (ie blair and bush etc) but you can wait and see where something is heading before cutting them off.

 

Gary, you ought to define precisely what you mean with yer question - believe in peace - please nail that shit down for the rest of us, because it can get awfully weird around here ya know.

 

Agreed

Saddam or Iraq had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks, nor are they a country known for harboring terrorists (in comparison to other islamic fundamentalist nations). This was just the original spin played by the US government, which sadly hundreds of people still believe due to the power of popular media.

In fact, Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein, were always vehemently opposed.

And why did the bombs go off in Bali, killing fellow Australians?

Funny, those incidents occured long after the war in Iraq was 'won'. Funny too, all three of those countries participated in the Iraq war.

Russia's occupation and oppression of islamic nations close to russia. Very unrelated to the war in Iraq

I doesn't benefit the thousands of people who died in the war - i'm talking huge figures. Nor does it benefit our nations who have shown themselves to be agressive, unwise and ignorant to international law. We are even greater targets than before.

No they shouldn't. I'm going to go against what the extremist lefties say and agree that the US, UK, AUSTRALIA and other nations should stay there and finish the job.

Sadly, this never happened in Afghanistan, and the Taliban returned in control. Hows that for a war on terrorism. Thankfully Australia is sending more troops there now.

You have some really good points. But the problem lies in the fact that our governments were manipulative, deceitful and aggressively pro-war and like you say "for the wrong reasons".

People like me are opposed to these governments and this war because we don't want something like this to happen again.

About the promises of troops being pulled out later in the year, I'm not surprised people think its propaganda - i don't know how many times our leaders have gone back on their promises

 

If you're so bent on reading anti-war threads, just read the rest of my comments in them.
I don't have a lot of time, but:
I think it's worth pointing out the obvious. I don't like the idea that you present, because I think it's the same foundation with which the religious approach the atheist. In the same way that a Christian can't imagine a world without God, you can't imagine a world without war. The fact remains that you've never seen a world without peace before, so you can't accurately say that suicide rates would soar and everything would just bloody suck.
The fact also remains that diplomacy is more efficient that anyone would like to think and correct me if you think I'm wrong, but since we haven't tried diplomacy in this case, we can't say that we had no alternative to Iraq.
Also, there are other wars than Iraq to look at. I for one, as you should have read by now, am completely against violence and warfare. Your argument, like others I have dealt with, focuses only on a whiny stereotype that you probably just saw on a fifteen minute plug in the news and got so pissed off at that you decided to post.
That, or, you've been reading these threads for so long, you for a moment forgot that there are stupid people in this world, took everyone's stance as pure fact and then decided to whine, not for one moment thinking that if people are stupid enough to have opinions different than yours that how can they possibly have the intelligence to comprehend your message/change their relative way of thinking to reorient in a direction favoring your opinion. Or, are you that arrogant?
You ask why people die. That's pretty much what your post boils down to, which is interesting since I ask the same question. Nevertheless, you cite death as a reason to cause more death. You cite the emotional appeal the media drags you into as validity for causing someone the same anguish overseas in a world different than you're own.
Great logic.
I also find it funny that you believe that war will lead to peace. You believe that a war will benefit the global community by bringing about the peace that you don't want because peace is impossible. From my point of view, peace is the ultimate benefit, so if I misinterpreted your original post to make benefit into something else like poverty and dispair, my apologies.
But to address your question, people die because of capitalism, desire, power, and land. People come to power because they want power, they want to control and they're arrogant enough to think that they can do it faultlessly. People kill because they take the easy way out and that's the quickest and surest way to achieving more power, more notorieity, more money, and more land. If people held to diplomacy, they'd find that they can't sneak around the system (other countries) and get what they really want out of sheer greed. The fault lies in the belief that peace is not beneficial to everyone. Their plans are overshadowed by greed and it's greed that keeps them from meeting the needs of their people. So, they cause more grief to the people by causing more pain and suffering through war and innocent killing.
If we were to take the peaceful route, the energy of capitalism and want could be evenly distributed and people wouldn't suffer, but rather actually enjoy life (unless some crazed nihilist) because we'd have universal healthcare, adequate job security, maximum productivity, and health to the extent that people could do the things they wanted to do in life that they found impossible to do while war existed.
I'm not saying that we'll ever reach a point in time like that, I doubt we ever will. But, that's the ultimate ideal and I believe that that ideal should be the goal of every country, leader, and person, so by god I"m sticking to it.

 

Saying "Let there be peace" can be an affirmation of hope, but you are right, it does little.

Saying "let me be peaceful" can be effective.
Not throwing the first punch in a pub is a first step in becoming a personal force for non-violence. But, being non-violent is not a passive activity. There are techniques you can use to prevent those two other guys from getting into a bar fight. (These techniques are also useful from stopping the other guy from throwing the first punch at YOU.)

Non-violent conflict resolution does not reduce conflict. The resolutions that it produces tend to be longer lasting, because all sides have agreed to the resolution.

I know that this sounds small and unimportant when you look at the situation in Iraq. Making yourself a source of non-violence is easier than changing the course of governments. It is also more satisfying. If enough people join the growing personal commitment to non-violence, large political violence will decrease.

"What if they held a war and nobody came?"
What if national leaders were skilled in non-violent conflict resolution?

I don't know how things are in Scotland, but in the States, anti-war groups have non-violence trainings before each "direct action." That would be a good way to meet people who spread the techniques of non-violence. There are also groups that specialize in the concept of non-violence. Again, the anti-war groups would have contacts to help you find those groups.

Or, you might take a look at this,
http://www.nonviolenceworks.com/snv/inspire.htm and go through the links to find people in your area.

Good Luck!

 

From what you have just said people are just being people and people like to fight. Thats never going to change.

I don't hate the idea of peace but it brings its own problems such as who keeps the peace.

War is just an argument that has gone past the point of reasoning in much the same way a fist fight is. Its not clever or big to fight but it happens and I don't see the world ever changing to a point of complete peace and harmony.

Greed, money, power, capitalism? There is no selfless deed so aren't we all greedy. You want peace so much? why? Do you really want there to be no death on earth?

Do you want to live forever? Imagine how dull that would be. The first few centuries were fine but after that the stories in "Neighbours" became a bit samey and gee there is nowhere to live anymore because the world is full.

Not reasons for war, granted, but I accept that war is inevitable as are other non man made disasters.

 

It amazes me that people go their whole lives believing that the state of the world as it is today is, was and will always be the ultimate human condition. Deconstruct your mind to what you were taught at school.

 

I just fail to see the problem in people dying. Only people without faith are supposed to be scared of dying.

I have no faith in a god yet I'm not afraid.

 

Ok, here's an exercise in imagination. Close your eyes. Imagine you're a mother. You have spent years raising your son with love and compassion that goes beyond the far reaches of what any human being can express normally, and one day you're talking to your beautiful child and the next day he's wiped off the face of the earth. There's a problem in dying.

I'm not afraid of dying, but why the fuck would you want to? Life's grand

 

I don't want to die but its gonna happen sooner or later and there isn't a particularly nice looking way to go so I'm philosophical about it all.

As for being a parent, well I am one and your right in the sense that I'd hate my son to die but if its gonna happen its gonna happen and there is nothing I can do about that.

If my son chooses to join the army then that is his choice and he must face the consequences of doing so.

If he doesn't join the army then he has hopefully a better life expectancy. Theres the point. All the soldiers out there are there because they chose to join the army.

I'm not going to say something lame like they are getting paid to be shot because they are not and the troops of both the US and UK are very well trained.

They are given every conceivable chance possible of making it through a war. There is nothing more a government can do. Someone has to protect our country. Someone has to protect the right of people in other countries.

If that someone gets shot for doing so then their training has failed them. Soldiers choose to join the army. I swear a lot of them even enjoy the action.

As for the Iraqi people they were being killed long before the US and UK went in. Look at the masses of graves that have been found. They are the people our soldiers are helping in the long term.

Accept that peace isn't going to be here by tomorrow and let the troops do their jobs. As for peace.... I can't see that ever happening totally but all we can do as human beings is try our best to limit the amount of wars and atrocities there are in the world.

 

The problem gary, is that if you support this war, then you support wars without much cause or justification, and if we wan't peace in the world, or to be more precise, for our countries to be advocaters of peace, we have to be expecting better of our governments.

And the mass graves thing doesn't surprise me, the country's been ravaged by war for years. And the other fact that is overlooked is that worse things are happening in Africa and other middle eastern countries but America doesn't invade nor help them because its not in their vested interest.

 

How many buildings full of people need to fall over before there is justification?

How many iraqi graves must there be?

How many warnings about letting inspectors in must one man have?

How many countries can one country invade?

As for Africa, Zimbabwe should be subject to sanctions from every nation. Barbaric country.

 

If you're talking about terrorism in the US perpetrated by muslims prior to the IRAQ war, about 3 or four seems to be enough, sadly.

Good question? How many public hangings or tortures should there be in Saudi Arabia, How many children must be massacred in zimbabwe, how many millions should die from aids or famine every year?

Well, less than they actually promised to the world.

One at a time Gary, one at a time. But as soon as we are finished with Iraq, we can move on to the next place. Perhaps in 100 years we can have little Americas all over the world.

I don't know, all that seemed to accomplish in Iraq was getting folks nice and hungry and the country lovely and defenceless so we could bomb the fuck out of it!

 

Dude! You and me both! We are together. Thank God that is some kind of peace. At least we know that some kind of peace does exist. But ya, as far as changing anything? NO. I'm just lucky that I get to lie here in my soft bed high stoned trippin eased.

But of course I'm afraid of tomorrow.

Look, even before there were guns, Cain slew Able. Man it's in our jeans. We are quit fucked up.

When there's no getting over the rainbow. When the smallest of dreams won't come true. I can't take all the madness the world has to give. But I won't last a day without you.

 

Right now, i feel like killing myself.

All I can say, thanks to Brandonveg, about this thread and all the pro-war threads:
"Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity."

 

See that is a classic example of typifying something: 'imagine a mother'. Your trying to envoke that peaecful 'holy righteous mother' image. How about imagine that mother after she's come home from what feels like the hardest day of her work-life only to find that her 13 yr-old son has broken another law, further driving her away from that perfect mother/child image we love to intimate. I mean we are talking about fucking life...it gets all fucked up quite a bit to the point where people erase their own existence. I mean there are varrying levels of peace aren't there.

I totally agree with gary's idea that 'Peace' is a human fallacy and I totally disagree with Lying_Field's idea that the human condition is something engendered through some kind of indoctrinized education. If you put two children in a playpen they're gonna fight over the toys inside...that ain't nurture that's nature. How can you change human nature...I mean you can synthetically change human nature to subdue people and create false 'peace' but its still not something natural.

As long as we stay human peace will stay an unreachable ideal.

 

Most great things begin as an ideal.

Before the above poster starts on me, i really do believe the answer to this guy is that simple.

Xx

 

Actually I quite like the public hanging thing. It should be used as a good deterrent.

Paedophiles, rapists, serial killers, etc. We put dogs down when they bite, why not humans.

There was a story over here of a three month old baby being raped by a man. Another man snatched a 3 year old out of her bath and another crashed a car with a child he had snatched. Burn them all alive and leave their remains hanging from a tree for all other Paedos to see.

People go on about human rights and the rights of criminals. People who commit these crimes lose any rights the moment they think them never mind carry them out.