An open letter to the anti-war movement

I don't view nonviolence as a strict ideology. It's relatively simple.

What happened to diplomacy? I understand what the former Iraqi government did, and I condone their removal from power, but I don't support the method with which we did that and the tactlessness with which we approached the situation. You say that sometimes we have no choice but to go to war. Call me young and liberal all you like, but I don't believe that. You make the conscious choice to practice nonviolence, and that's a choice each person has to make. If I can be nonviolent and if nonviolence is a part of my religion, then I'm going to hold everyone to that standard because that's where I personally set my par.
I'm not a member of the hard left, so I can agree with you on most of your accusations. I'm further upset at the tolerancy this country presents when international outrage sparks over Uzbekistan's public protest slaughter and Iran's hanging of 16 year old gay kids. It's on both sides. Both sides are so influential in the media that we're censoring our public into hearing what they want to hear. The left isn't broadcasting about Iran because that proves that something needed to be done about the Middle East. The right isn't broadcasting about Iran because, let's face it, it's Fox News, when they aren't having crossfire talk shows, they get their feeds from the leftist stations which don't know their head from their ass.
But, to say that we sometimes have to go to war, I don't buy that for one minute. Nonviolence and peaceful negotiations are quite possible if people in power would stop being so concerned over land, money, power, and maintaining over-juiced testosterone levels. We have the U.N. (useless as it may be), you can't complain about how useless it is and then not do anything to make it any more useful. When you bypass it completely and then don't propose a fix to any of the problems you find, you show the world that they can do the same. So, don't marvel at the fact that the United Nations isn't worth a single penny. If we could teach ourselves to sit down and talk out the disputes we have, we could probably solve much more than we can by waving guns in the air on a crusade to kill the man who "tried to kill my daddy."

 

What anti-war kids have you talked to?!
You need to come to D.C./Baltimore and meet some actual antiwar protesters. I can think of over a hundred people that I know personally who would call themselves antiwar and are on Free Tibet like green on weed.
Not only am I antiwar and Free Tibet, I even went to the Dalai Lama's address in D.C. back in (I think it was) November.
Maybe it's just me, but your lack of knowledge about real antiwar protestors is startling. Have you ever been to an actual war protest/flag washing/peace vigil and met the people there? I'm not talking about the little scene kids with lighters and Kurt Cobain tee shirts. I'm talking about the mothers, the grannies, the AU college groupies, and the underground psyche crowd. I have this feeling that if you went to a protest and met people like this you'd understand the antiwar movement a lot more than you do now.

As for the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, yes, something needed to be done about Iraq's leadership/dictatorship, but, the tact with which we approached the war is horrible. To the public's knowledge, there never was a plan to ever get out, no time tables, no nothing that would evidence we had planned the war to the slightest bit.
Furthermore, retaliation towards Al Quaeda only shows that we're that much weaker. We give them fuel to attack us again. We spark them into attacking more of our people and killing more people. If we had specifically set out with an agenda for peacemaking and opened the doors to diplomacy, while they may not have accepted, we would still have stood for an honorable cause.
It's the same idea with the metaphor of what if you were in a room with twenty other people, all of whom had knives. You have a knife and the most money of everyone in the room. If someone attacks you for your money, are you going to attack them back or are you going to let yourself die for the cause fo nonviolence? Remember, if you attack and kill them, all of their friends are going to gang up and kill your friends.
I personally would die for peace. I wouldn't draw my knife. I'd destroy my knife. I wouldn't give the attacker my money, but I would let them kill me. No matter how horribly they attacked me, they still attacked an unarmed person, which is in itself horrible to most people. Hopefully, through my actions, the attacker would either not attack or his friends would leave him. If I'm still alive, I accept an apology and I try and talk to the guy to find out why he needs the money and why he resorted to violence to get it. It's the honorable choice and that's the choice I feel I would make and that we all should make.
Of course the metaphor is difficult to move into international and world politic terms, but it's relatively simple to comprehend and could easily be achieved in world politics if we would only disarm ourselves and say we're open to peace and nonviolence.
Again, call me young and liberal for saying that, but that's honestly how I feel about world politics and it's a simple concept that I live by.
Now. As for Israel. I agree that there's quite a bit of bashing on Israel, but I think that's across the playing field. I believe that Palestine/Israel has transcended partisan views. My personal belief is that they should learn to get along and share the land, but I know people who stand on both sides and part of the antiwar movement.

 

Told you he's totally out of touch. Even the working class here in the Gurnie are generally Pro-soldier and anti-war/anti-Bush. And they often ask "What's Tibet?" but that's a problem of the public education system. The youth are with us.

 

I think I have a slight advantage over the other youth. I firmly hold that drug-induced trips can be spiritual and on the academic side, I helped found our Free Tibet chapter and work with the Baltimore Food Not Bombs.

 

Okay I havn't been around in ahwile so sorry if this post is no longer relevent or whatever but just to clear up the bob dylan thing.

When I mentioned this song I wanted people to understand what alot of wars are over which is material desires and human beings twisted desire to rule over other fellow humans which is truly sad.The reason this song is so powerful to me is because it exposes the "kings" for what they truly are cowards.Sure they are there to command the soldiers but they sure don't want to volunteer there life for the cause yet they don't have a problem telling other humans why they should murder to bring about good for humanity.

As for this verse of the song im aware it isn't the most peaceful of intentions but I really wish people would atleast take in all the lyrics instead of just labeling the whole thing as negative because of the ending verse.

On another note im glad you brought that up though as it should be observed that even though some people do great evil to humanity you shall still show compassion towards those types as not doing so only harbours hate and creates more negative vibes.

 

If he is alive then it seems [let me be a little less presumptive] he does not seem to wish to speak with us.

If he is dead then obviously he won't be talking with us.. it will obviously be his replacement or spokesperson.
The point was that he or Al-Quaeda as a organisation do not wish to speak with us..

All they seem to do is take credit for this or that attack with statements sent to the media.. no dialouge.

Don't you agree ?... or are you under the ever increasingly solitary persuasion that Al-Quaeda does not exist.. just a figment of the CIAs imaginations ? ...
The London bombers were patsys or fools and the person who appeared to give credit to Al-Quaeda was either: A fool [to believe such lies] like the rest of us and the bombers or he/they were CIA [or whomever] secret agents.
I think even Skip concedes Al-Quaeda is a real organisation..but i have a open mind please enlighten me if you feel different.

Oh it seems it will be the CIA.. not 'whomever'.

I do more research than half the people in these forums [it seems].. If not i at least don't lie to myself when i read something in a response that proves me wrong.. Or think i have the answers from day one.. Like some around here [e.g London bombings-that talk back then was sick].
You are pretty much dyemetricaly apposed to everything i post.. it may seem like i do nothing.. but i do.

I question a hell of a lot as well.. if i trot out what the 'suits' say inadvertly or subconciously and somebody wishes to respond [like yourself] i always try and defend the point i am making.. or do you ignore these efforts..? oh well i don't suppose i am that suprised if you do.

I agree with you..

In my humble opinion it is OBL and the Al-quaeda network.. and all the insurgency willing to blow there fellow countrypersons up on a daily basis .. but i am sure we will disagree on this point.

i suppose you are talking about presidents and primeministers.. ?. Well apart from 'war' these people run a hell of a lot more than that.. like the country.. it would be pretty daft for these people to don a flak jacket imho.

Thats why we have a military hiearchy.. who know the art of war .

Ultimatly it is the 'main man/woman' who gives the final order.. but this is ever decreasing when we have things like the U.N security council and such bodies.. All in all a lot more complicated than when 'kings' DID go out and battle..

Though to me the song seems to be about the arms trade as much as those that use them.. wich in this song is a little bit over done for my taste..but i guess each to there own.

I was merely wishing to bring a touch of humour to this thread [possibly only something that i would find funny i admit].. not a stinging critique to this song.

I WILL NEVER SHOW COMPASSION TO THOSE I FEEL ARE 'EVIL'.. NEVER.. i can live with creating a few 'negative vibes'..

 

I agree with your first paragraph .. but not with your second.. All that will happen is you will be dead and the person who has the money will then become the enemy.. the cycle will occur again and again untill the last person stands [human nature for you]...

If you kindly read my previous few post it might also add the point about the 'enemy' not wishing peace... so how can we ever have peace with them ?..

The logic if we attack them they attack us is fine up untill it turns into them killing there fellow country person.. Al-Quaeda reasonings being a whole other topic of conversation.

We effectively order ceasefire.. and move from attack to defend.
Then it is less of a ratioanle and more of a excuse...as they continue killing.

Defend the endless car and road sides bombs.. 'our foreign policy' maybe mmm a excuse.

I fully respect those that have a none violence attitude.. and a anti war stance..thats a complete anti war stance , not just the current conflict.. but it does trouble me when those same people are talking about illigality and the 'wrongs' of this policy or that.. sounds a little ridiculous imho.

 

That's where I think we disagree. I believe in nonviolence to the point that I would accept allowing myself to be killed/maimed/destroyed/etc for the sake of nonviolence. It's not passiveness completely because I stand up for myself by holding to my belief in pacifism rather than giving into the mob. In those words, I'm letting the mob be the tool of my achieving the ultimate stance in my belief.
To put this in world politic terms, I believe it to be stronger of a nation to stand for peace by no pursuing the enemy but showing the faults of the enemy which continues to fight. Point taken that Al Quaeda does not function like that and our nonviolence is seen only as weakness, but I still don't believe in any war for that matter. I accept their difference in belief and can only hope that through a policy of non-aggression they'll be swayed to do the same even if they kill me in the process.

 

I don't think none violence is a weakness personaly..
I am not a violent person in my heart.. i am just commenting on the situation at hand.. wich happens to be a violent one.
The reality is that not many people are like yourself or are unable to be like you because the 'enemy' does not allow it.

I DO believe we DID try our best to go down the peaceful route.. this point is debated i guess mainly by those who are 'anti war' or 'anti iraq war'.. wich is fair enough.. the reality imho is that we DID try..but failed.. something i guess you would not agree with ?..
Anyhoo i don't wish to argue with you over every issue.. you seem like a 'straight forward' [no offence meant-it's a compliment] guy.

If i see a post relating Bush to Hitler from yourself.. i might just change my mind about you though

 

Sounds pretty chill. And about Bush and Hitler, those flyers/posters/chants make me laugh in hysterics, particularly when they come from 12 year olds who read it on wikipedia and take every stretched and imagined similarity as proven fact.

 

You and I may know each other in passing. I get out once in a while.

 

Well for my money, any sort of a human foreign policy in the US ended in 1953 when the Eisenhower administration took over. I have been speaking out against the US tendency to both arm and subvert the world since long before President Clinton came along. You can make a fair case for things declining ever since Jackson.

 

hello, I'm new.
what you said intrigues me because all this political bullshit is my cup of tea. how fucked up our government is goes way all back to george washington and the "founding fathers" and how they supported the french revolution and supported how tons of innocent people were killed and then their bodies left to be desicrated and abused. it's not just clinton..or even the whole bush thing. our society has been fucked from the get-go!!!!

 

12 year olds you say.. i have read grown men and women spout it ... I am sure if i typed it into 'search' it would have many results.. no hysterics.. merely sadness

 

Dear Stonecircle,

Have you ever been in a real fight? You know, the kind you can only win by being, in every way, better than your opponent.

Yes, of course, there are those who use the means of violence and destruction to achieve their political ends. It is wise to oppose them, to refuse them any power.

There are those who oppose the Bad Guys' political ends but refuse to look beyond, to rise above, to transcend their means. Maybe they mean well, who knows? In the end, they use the means of violence and destruction to achieve their, opposing, political ends. Maybe it is wise to refuse them any power as well.

Then there are also those who insist that the means themselves, violence and destruction, are the real problem. I don't know why this simple idea is so vehemently resisted, especially by those who identify with their faith. I guess it is just easier to refuse power to the non-violent.

Maybe it is too easy to confuse power with violence, or maybe you just love violence and destruction.

If you do not look beyond violence and destruction for fulfillment, for satisfaction that you have actually resolved your conflicts, then you may have to consider that you are actually ruled by your most primal desire for violence and destruction.

You may have convinced yourself you are "civilized" by dressing up the beast in some complex ritual that allows you to enjoy the show without offending your conscience. But, do you honestly believe you are ready for a real fight? Because, in reality, you have not tamed the beast, you have only replaced the rider. You should know better.

Do you even understand what I am talking about?

Peace and Love

 

Power is almost by definition the ability to apply force to a person or persons who do not conform to the will of those holding power. I live in a tiny town of less than 300 folks. However, the town council has power. It has the power to take money away from you in return for letting you build only the type of dwelling that the planning commission says you can build. In return for granting them this power, we receive access to several services. Nevertheless, that does not change the fact that they have power. If you choose to defy their power, armed officers will come to your door and take you away. No society will run without the threat of physical force.

 

I will not dignify stoncecircle's letter with an answer because:

1. It shows a complete lack of understanding of any opinion which opposes his/her own.
2. It places almost every person who holds a liberal belief in the same bracket
3. Most of it is a complete distortion of the truth

 

Number 1 is defined in number 2 which is fallacious because if number 3 is correct than why does number 2 even matter?

Not trying to bitch, read my posts.
I'm just in a *tightens up lips and shakes head in playful fury* type of mood.

Wow. And you know what? I think I'm en route to being stoned.

 

Jorma I thought about that when i posted it but i couldn't be bothered fixing it

Maybe i should have gone with - "Its a big pile of crap"

And i read some of your posts. You're quite an agressively logical and clever young man. I like it. Keep on being thoughtful for the sake of the rest of us idiots

 

I am gonna agree with old stonecircle on this one because corporate amerika loves the yummy youth running around in their new threads. it's all stereotypical bullshit. there ain't no peace love and rock and roll. it's fight for what you believe in. It's stand up and know what the fuck is going on. It's not going to change if we don't change it. It's only getting worse. they have people like samuel allito getting up in the supreme court there is definatley something wrong here people!!! it's all about peace and love, NO. it's about knowing what your up against and standing up for what you believe in. If you believe in peace, you have to fight for it. Nobodies gonna change cause I walk around with a flower in my hand. They will probably want to throw me in somekind of asylum..and that's the truth. Amerika doesn't want change..they want to stay tightly nestled in their greed.
Hey..it's like like this kats..where I'm from a child rapist does less time in jail than ME for a drug related crime..put that in your pipes and smoke it!!