Predestination: The Controversy is Over-rated?

Going to spare everyone a hundred links to a hundred controversial or needlessly confusing or argumenative articles on Predestination.
The reason I dont even like reading through the scholarly dispositions is because I find it only gets a pretty simple idea into a fantastic ball of confusion.

Instead I liked this from IBBill:

The least offensive explanation for predestination I've heard is:
You have free will, but God's so smart He knows what you'll choose.

To me, this starts to get into rash speculations of the mind of God -- an area I avoid because there is no way I understand the mind of God. Thus, I don't worry much about predestination.

I strongly agree with this take on it.
It really is that simple but where people get caught in this would be they speculations into Gods Mind.
How and what does this imply?
Does that mean... ?

Can God look down the corridors of time and know who will be at the end - sure He can.
But nothing changes here for us.
We are free-will beings doing what we do, no matter what.
I dont even see any purpose and gain trying to rationalise (never mind create doctrines and logical leaps) the mind of God in regards to this issue.

Seriously, I think Christians themselves have done a great job of making this reasonably simple idea into some sort of problem and controversy that need not be there.
Never mind the misunderstanding the non-christians are getting out of all this.

Comments, suggestions?

 

I don't misunderstand it at all...you don't have to be a Christian to understand the concepts of free will or an omniscient God. Don't insult the intelligence of those of other faiths...it's a common mistake on the part of Christians.

In the overall Christian scheme, those that were/are/will be born with everything predisposed toward accepting Christianity clearly have an advantage.

If, per common Christian teaching, God gives each human being one earthly life, then clearly there is some kind of predestination intended on God's part, because it is obvious that those who are born and nurtured in a Christian environment will be most likely to follow this faith throughout their lives.You don't have to be capable of second-guessing God to understand this...it's simple.

Recycled posts:

That's right...faith cannot be forced.

So, Christians, if we only have one life to live, and we're all supposed to accept Jesus Christ or go to hell, why did God create an infinite variety of human beings in an infinite variety of national, racial, health, intelligence, economic, and religious circumstances, some here in the USA in Bible-believing, prophecy-watching families, others as Hindus or Muslims or Buddhists, and so on?

I'll leave out the question of pre-disposition to certain sexual or behavioral tendencies, just to make it more clear-cut and easier.

In other words, there are going to be many people who are pre-inclined to become Christians, and many more who are not. If you accept that God personally creates each human being, then why did he create them as he did and continue to follow this pattern of creation?

Literalist/fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity can't exist without the premise of predestination....it's the logical conclusion to their process of reasoning.

 

We are all one cosmic consciousness there is no seperation, we are all beyond time and space, and yet caught within all these individual forms, watching movies and playing out a small part as some kind of life-form. Everything is One, All the religions are one and pointing towards this truth that is PROVED by Quantum Mechanics.

So is there free will or predestination?

It depends on whose will we are talking about here.

There is only free will, because there is only ME. I am all! We all share this "ME" you have one I have one, it's no big deal.

Yet, when it comes to say, the Ganja Prince... that form... and it's decisions, does that ego have free will...

of course no, it is completely controlled by the cosmic consciousness... which includes his invidual part's contribution but doesn exclude the influence of anything else...


The debate about all this is there because some seperate what is not seperate. It is only seperate in your mind.

"Magic Theature.

For Madmen only

Price of Admission.

Your mind"

Want to join us, in the theature? you must give up your mind, to see we are one

 

Look at the Category this is posted in dumbass.
Its in the Christianity forum isn't it?
Yes, yes it is.

 

Erasmus70's reply:

I rest my case.

 

This shows the clear evil nature of the fundementalists that asserts everybody but US is going to hell.

I mean it is just a chance to pat the ego on the back. It's a way to say ME, and those that Believe like I do, are the chosen people to go to heaven, and everybody else can suck on an egg and go to hell.

It's A BIG FUCK YOU and very unchristian!

Yet we must sympathize with the devil, because can't you guys see how tempting to would be to think this, it makes the ego feel special, polarizes the world very easily, it is simple to understand, believe in chirst or go to hell. It's simple. It helps many fundies cope with thier predictament.

So fundies I sympathize, I can understand why you believe such lies, to make your ego feel better.


Yet so be the will of the cosmic consciousness, I forgive thee. All the puppet egos dance to the tune of the great vibration...


And I know that behind the fundementalist mask, deep behind the thinking processes of these literalist christians is a BEING, a being that just took an incarnation to experience a movie. The movie of a fundementalists...

How horribly beautiful...

 

This isn't a church, erasmus. This is a forum to discuss christianity, and one need not be a christian to discuss it.

As long as one cannot choose where they are born, the social and economic status of the family they are born into, or cannot control all elements of their daily lives I dont think we have any true free will. Our choices are not free if as long as they are heavily influenced by circumstances outside our control - environmentally, socially, or economically. The ability we have to make choices is not the same as "free will."

What Webster has to say:

Would the child born to aristocrats have the same choices if she were born to a poor family? Would an American have the same choices if he were born in Afganistan? Would an athelete have the same choices if he were paralyzed? A genius if he were mentally challenged?

Predetestination and free will seem very contridictory, and I can understand why there would be controversy over the ideas. Your favored explanation for it doesn't even get into the meat of the issue.

 

Wow...
Ding ding.. the wacko train is in town... allll aboard.

When a topic saying 'Predestination' is posted in the Christianity Forum.. its often a 'tip off' to you, the reader, that you are probably going to see the Christian version of the whole thing.
It a sort of convenience to you that explains why things like 'Subject Categories' were created and are used.
Sorry.. I did not specify I was talking about Hipforums.. because you may well tell me that its also true or not true for OTHER FORUMS.

To the Buffy Keener: Free Will to make choices doesnt stop being because people have different choices does it.
No.
Where you think you are going with this I can barely imagine.
Im sure it would be quite fascinating though.

 

It isn't just that the choices are different, it is that our choices are often heavily influenced by things completely outside our control.

Your argument is that we have free will because we simply have the ability to make choices. But the ability to make choices is just that: the ability to make choices. None of that makes it free will. You're basically saying that because we aren't some sort of computer only executing the will of an another user we have free will. It just isn't that simple.

You're a little heavy on the insults. It doesn't help prove your point, but does indicate your argument is weak.

There are member-only forums here, and other sites I'm sure, if you want to find a place where only christians are going to be responding to the topics you post. I'm sure you'll be suprised to learn that more people than just christians that make up the general public, so threads on a public forum (and liberal one at that) just may include them. There's no reason to get so upset about it.

 

Im not upset.
I think its kinda funny (wierd funny) that you are sorta, kinda, errrrr, making some sort of 'point' that is sorta, kinda, Idunno, maybe trying to say something or stuff.

By all means continue.. Im not stopping you.

 

however there are times in the bible where god clearly tests people and he dosnt know what they will do

So here is another explanation

God chooses what he forknows. He is selctive when looking into the future.Snice hes god you would expect him to have complete control over his powers.

 

and it kinda takes it back to the more 'Lutheran' take on this (and honestly its all the same) but that you have something so mysterious that it really comes down to being something we cant 'process' anyways.
All we are left with at the end of the day is knowing we have accepted his choice and in doing so have that assurance.
I just think it becomes unhelpful when we get into these sorta ongoing struggles over the nature of God 'as if' we can someone change or affect our own situation.

I guess that is what i mean by 'over-rated'.