Hey, I've been studying into Wicca a lot more than I used to lately, and one thing that's hanging me up is the Wiccan Credo. After reading into it and trying to interpret the entire thing, the following lines still seem nonsensical to me, and I was wondering if anyone could clarify their meaning: "Nine woods in the cauldron go, Burn them fast and burn them slow." This seems completely random and oxymoronic to me. "When the Wheel begins to turn, Let the Beltane fires burn." According to the Wiccan tradition, the year "begins to turn" at Samhain, not Beltane. "Where the rippling waters go, Cast a stone and truth you'll know." Is this referring to scrying or something else? "Merry Meet and Merry Part, Bright the cheeks and warm the heart." I understand what the first verse is referring to, but I don't see its connection with the second verse. "When misfortune is enow, Wear the blue star on thy brow." I can't pinpoint any real tradition that utilizes this practice. Also, what is "When misfortune is enough [enow is the Middle English form of enough]" supposed to mean. Besides all that, I know it was published in the laste '70s by Gwen Thompson, who said it was taught to her by her grandmother. Is there anything to support or verify this story, or that the Credo is older than when it was published? Thanks for any help.
About the age ... uh no idea, to be honest. Considering the age of wicca I doubt very very much it could be any older. That 'Granny taught me' detail could just be added to make it seem more valid/authentic. Unless of course Granny was a traditional witch herself. Shall have a crack at deciphering it for you... Nine woods = uh I guess that's refering to sacred/magical trees of celtic culture. (Can't remember what they are offhand.) They will indeed burn at diffrent rates, owing to their make up.* Wheel turns = yup the year starts as samhain, guess they means it's already turning and the wheel/year is gathering momentum. Which I suppose would be true in May. The climate is warming up, plants are growing etc. (but only if you're in the northern hemisphere) Water = Hmm what sounds about right about scrying. Merry... = no idea, probably just added it to sound good. It may well just be concluding that verse, before going on to something else. Not an uncommon feature in poetry. Fortune... = Perhaps it's a metaphor, to do something and use wicca when you're having a really hard time. (they can serious expect people to walk around with random things stuck to their foreheads) #rant ahoy# This has just reminded me how I have never put any stock in the creed. Before I figured it's meaning out, well may not have known much but wasn't dumb enough to try and live by something that didn't even make sense. Then did start to understand it, and well yes very endearing and all, but I'm not in this for pretty words. Quite frankly have come to find it shockingly Eurocentric, now can handle that, or at least could if people openly questioned it. Oh and it's just a little trite/twee, we aren't in 'ye olde England' any more Toto (any one born after Shakespare using such language will usually just sound a pretentious idiot). *The tree thing irrelevant for anyone not living in a traditionally celtic country. They shouldn't rever an oak any more than I'd rever a palm tree. Palms just aren't relevant to me and my life experiences. Of course I am British, but still couldn't confidently tell oak and elm apart, even before they'd been cut down. OK yeah harsh, but I stand by it. The Gods gave use the capacity for independant thought, so go on blaze a trail. The way you should live your life is already obvious. Take the time to listen to that, rather than some cute but crazy poem. It will be far more helpful.
LOL just remembered this article. My standard reaction when someone meaner/cooler gets there first... I laugh, am in awe, learn, share Here's phase 4 in action, enjoy. It covers the whole rede (in this case AKA credo), but I picked out the relevant parts for you. From ... http://www.obsidianmirror.net/mirror.html We Need to Buy Some Rede-B-Gon. This, the Rede of the Wiccae (or the Wiccan Rede) is taken to be gospel, for lack of a better word. This is, as I've found it to be, the oldest rendition of this, and I think it needs to go. Why? Because it's a load of crap, that's why. It's superstition in poetic form; hardly does this constitute a moral rede (note: piece of advice) by which to live your life, let alone to be taken as an absolute religious text. There are people who take this piece of work, or subsequent renditions thereof, more seriously than fundamentalist Christians take their Bibles. It's a pretty poem, not a dogmatic text. Yet people are treating it as such. This is a problem, people. So I'm going to take this poem line by line and rip it to shreds. If you don't want your belief system examined closely for ethical fuckups, I'd suggest you leave now. Otherwise, read. You might learn something. Who knows, I may even be wrong, and I may help you rediscover the Rede for yourself and find a whole new way of accepting it as dogma. However, don't hold your breath on that last one. Nine woods in the Cauldron go -- burn them quick an burn them slow.Which nine? Contradictory instructions on burning them? That helps a lot. Way to go, Witchypoo! Whoa, here comes the logic train, zooming by again! Shit, gotta wait for the 4:33. Here's a $ilver Ravenwolf book to divert your attention and allow you the freedom to IGNORE THE REAL PROBLEM (hint: stupidity). These two lines are actually taken from a song called The Nine Woods (being birch, oak, rowan, willow, hawthorn, hazel, apple, vine, and fir), which happen to comprise traditional Celtic balefires, to my understanding. So while this might look like superstitious bullshit, it's really not. When the Wheel begins to turn -- let the Beltane fires burn. Drive-by arson. This is funny, since the Wheel (of the Year) begins and ends its revolution at Samhain, not Beltaine. So, when Samhain comes around, let's celebrate the wrong festival. Just like Christmas in July. Again, I repeat the moral of this story: MOST WICCANS (like most people) ARE FUCKING IDIOTS. Where the rippling waters go, cast a stone an truth ye'll know. *pulls out a banjo* "Throw a rock in the riverrrrr....throw a rock in the riverrrrr...throw a rock in the river and the gods will speak to yeeeeeee...." Sound like a load of crap? It's called SCRYING. I choose to scry in a dark mirror, but some people like to divine by rippling a pond. But remember: don't scry over spilled milk. Merry meet an merry part -- bright the cheeks an warm the heart. Awwww!!! Soooooo cuuuuuuuuute!!! So fullll of shiiiiiiiiit!!! The NWO has some serious problems right now, and that is a lack of love and reverence for Nature. We need to concentrate on that, and not happy little fluff like this. WAKE UP, PEOPLE. WE'RE LOSING OUR RELIGION TO THESE BOZOS. THIS IS THE SHIT WE'RE BEING GIVEN INSTEAD OF INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO REVERE NATURE. Just think of all the conditions being placed upon these sentiments which are supposed to be pure of heart. What joy can you get from indoctrination? Certainly nowhere near as much joy as can be obtained from walking amongst the elms or rolling around in the grass, that's for damn sure. When misfortune is enow, wear the blue star on thy brow. When I'm sick of being shit on, I should put a dainty little blue star up by my forehead. Sure. That will look really good on a six-foot redheaded guy. Why don't you just recite a little chant? Move the negative energy from around you (like I do)? But damn...a blue star...hardly worth comprising 3.8% of one's religious doctrine. Wouldn't it be really silly if Christians dedicated 3% of the Bible to the building of the Tabernacle! Hahahaha....wait, what's that? They did? Oh. Read the last, oh, fifteen chapters of Exodus. See the silliness of that. Then apply it to yourselves, you hypocritical pieces of fluffybunny patchouli-incense-smelling shit.
Thanks for replying everybody. I suspected that it was just a piece of fluff, but didn't want to condemn until I knew that I wasn't just being shallow in my reasoning. There are a few lines in it that I think are relevent and good to take with you. I know personally that "with a fool no season spend lest ye be counted as his friend" is unfortunately all too true. But I have learnt to beware of any and all religious texts and documents. Why should I grant someone else so much power over my beliefs? What do they know that I already don't or couldn't find out on my own time? Once again, thanks.
Not true. Why would the oak not be relevant to my worship, when it was an oak that my people decended from? The Beal Tree is a great oak, in the roots of which are my ancestors. That is why the Oak was always so important, because that is where our story begins. Why wouldnt I revear it? The tribes always had a Beli (sacred tree) in the middle of their land, and it was usually an oak. Our land, right in the middle next to our creek, has a big oak, and of course it is our Beli. What is "Celtic" country anyway? that spans from Sythia to Applachia.
"Beltaine Fire" is redundant anyway. Bealtuinn means "Beal's Fire" or "Fires of Bel" Its like ATM machine and PIN number. But people do that too.
Hmm yeah shall retract that statement. Guess geography isn't relevant, long as people understand what they are doing and why. The beli sounds wonderful, to feel such a connection with nature. There are a lot of oaks growing near me too (owing to fairly local forest, tradition of ship building etc), such magnificent trees. Umm honestly have no idea what I meant there, was probably thinking of Britain & Ireland (well northern Europe), that's what people usually seem to think of when you say Celtic. Though do realise it extends beyond that.
While I agree that it's not valid because it "sums up" Wicca, I don't think that it being written in the '70s takes away from it's validity. Wicca didn't truly begin until the 1950s anyway. Every religion has to start somewhere. But what I don't like is if someone makes up something and then makes it sound as if it's ancient. That's just misleading. You're right though---it's cute but essentially bullshit.
Hmmm you've baffled me now, do explan. If you please. Well obviously you can trace witchcraft (in its purest form) back centuries. Witchcraft was outlawed in Britain until 1951, so just on that basis there must have been something, why else would they bother making it illegal. Obviously Gardener go his influences from somewhere; still far as I know wicca (by it's standard/common/current definition) is pretty much a merging thereof under Gardner's instruction and influence. Which indeed occured during the 50s'. Have no illusions that the Celts weren't a bloodthirsty bunch at times. They had to be, as was every other culture at that time (can't see there being much change there). Just have to take it on board and accept them, no whitewash or apologies. Not that I'll be doing any human sacrificing, that would be frowned upon. Besides I'm a vegetarian, don't even kill bugs.
The quote was that "wicca" didnt truely begin in the '50s. Yes it did. The things that Gardner used to construct it, Enochian ritual, Kabbalah, and various Hindu and Egyptian, of course have their histories, but WICCA did indeed truely start in the '50s. Thats like saying that the radio didnt really get invented in the early 1900's because the radio waves that it uses have been around since time began. As to the Celts, i was being a smart ass. Of course there were sacrifices, especially to Crom Cruiach, a very powerful, yet bloodthirsty war god. It was demanded that he have blood. Of course he isnt really needed today, by me anyway, so Im not sending him any sacrifice. I taught a workshop on headhunting in Celtic society, so believe me, i know the bloodthirsty past, and frankly, i am quite proud of it. The times called for it, and we did it well. As to headhunting, it had very deeply rooted spiritual reasons, and I dont disagree with what they were doing at all.
LOL course, duh Very accurate considering about 90%* of wicca is indeed ripped of so many other sources most can't even keep track. Think the point where my own affiliation (flimsy as it was) with wicca was the point I actually tried to figure out where it came from and how it was all supposed to fit together. Yeah I'm cool with the headhunting and gory bits too, being able to understand the context of their time. Have a rather macarbre pride/delight/curiosity (not sure which word suits best there) of the whole thing. We did indeed put up a good fight. Way back then I probably would have been swinging axes, torching and decapitating with the best of them. If they'd let me of course. Far as I know the reasons behind headhunting were to prevent the enemy haunting them (as the soul was/is in the head), and perhaps there was a sense of keeping them as trophies. There's obviously more to it, should try and research into it. Any good resources for that? *And that's giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Of course they'd have let you! Nope, no more than that behind it, it was to trap the soul and reap the essence of their enemy. To keep from haught and to control the spirit. The heads were reveared and the spirit of the fallen warrior was thought to protect them. The trophy part was only when the fallen was of great stature, it got special reverence.
LOL I meant cause I'm a girl, did they have female warriors? (know there was Bocdciea (sp) but was she just an exception) Oh cool, know more than I thought I did. Am very tempted to go for past life regression, would be awesome to find out I actually was a celt. Have that as ancestry of course, but maybe there is more to it.
Yes they did, that is what I meant by of course they would. Though not as often, women were just as "allowed" (not even allowed, that implies subservience) to fight as well. Women were completly equal in right and priviledge, though their duties might have been different. As to past life regression, you have to not think of reincarnation in the Eastern since, where its a karmic system and you are born into different places and classes, etc. If you have the understanding of the ancestors, you understand the two spirit. One, the "spirit" is you, and your memories, and everything that made you you. Its the product of your conscience and will be what remains of you upon death. It can stay around, go to the otherworld,whatever spirits do. The "soul" is the piece of energy that makes us live, its the piece of divinity in us all, and it will transmigrate to other things upon death. It could be in a tree, a mountain, another person etc. The "memories" that we have of past lives is the memories of that soul, and that soul will carry our memories with it in a collective. It is a symbiotic relationship. That soul was part of someone before, you werent, you are you. SO if that soul was Cleopatra, in a way "you" were Cleopatra in a past life, but You have only been you. You understand? And as to reincarnation of spirit, it only happens along family lines, if it happens, so yes, YOU would have been a Celt had you been actually reincarnated.
Ah I see, very interesting. Hadn't really thought of it like that, with the soul and spirit as almost seperate entities. Makes more sense though. Thank you That's interesting about women's role in the society, could have lived with that. It seems a very modern concept, but obviously wasn't. Am fairly sure it was true of Viking society too.
I think you misread what I wrote. If you look back I say, "Wicca didn't truly begin UNTIL the 1950s," not that it didn't begin in the 1950s.
