Traditional Hinduism & ISKCON

The one-sided full-throttle lecturing thing...an unfortunate aspect of ISKCON.

 

CC i know the philosophy i beilieve in quite well. there is no need to be condescending, it is tacky and uncalled for. i also supportwhat srila prabhupada explains in his works.

i am not going to argue, nor try and convince u, but, rather, simply present what SP meant in regards to lord shiva etc. he did not hate him, shiva is the best of all vaisnavas. there are many examples to support this in shastra, i will list only a few....

Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.13.16

(Suta Gosvami instructs the sages of Naimisaranya)

nimna-ganam yatha ganga
devanam acyuto yatha
vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh
purananam idam tatha

Just as the Ganga is the greatest of all rivers, Lord Acyuta the supreme among deities and Lord Sambhu [Siva] the greatest of Vaisnavas, so Srimad-Bhagavatam is the greatest of all Puranas.

shiva taught goddess parvati (durga/kali) to worship visnu/krsna.

In the Trailokya-sammohana-tantra Lord Siva, speaking to Goddess Durga:

"As cintamani is the best of jewels, kamadhenu is the best of cows, a chaste and saintly woman is the best of women, a brahmana is the best of men, and the Gaaga is the best of rivers, so this Krishna mantra is the best of mantras.

"That is why, O goddess, I chant this Krishna mantra every day. In this world of moving and unmoving beings there is nothing else like this mantra."


In the Brihat-sahasra-nama-stotra, Lord Siva affirms:

navaisnavaya datavyam
vikalpopahatatmane
bhakti-sraddha-vihinaya
visnu-samanya-darsine

"These thousand names should not be given to one who is not a devotee of Lord Visnu, to one whose heart is destroyed by mental speculation, to one who has no faith in devotional service, or to one who thinks the demigods are equal to Lord Visnu."

At the end of those prayers Goddess Durga also affirms:

aho sarvesvaro visnuh
sarva-devottamottamah
jagad-adi-gurur mudhaih
samanya iva viksyate

"Lord Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the demigods, the first spiritual master of the universe. Only fools think the demigods are His equals."

In the Skanda Purana, Lord Siva explains:

"The wise know that chanting mantras is equal to ten million Vedi studies, yajnas are equal to ten million mantra-chantings, and songs glorifying Lord Visnu are equal to ten million yajnas."

In another verse of the Skanda Purana, Lord Siva tells Uma:

"O beautiful one, even if it is performed without the proper mantras or the proper actions, a person who offers arati to Lord Krishna attains all perfection.

In the Skanda Purana, in a conversation of Sri Siva and Sri Uma, it is said:

"A person who, His head and knees touching the ground, bows down before Lord Krishna, the master of the demigods, attains the result of an asvamedha-yajna."

prabhupada taught us to love krsna, and to follow lord shiva's example in that he also loved krsna. he was not so unidimensional as to say my god is better than ur god. u will notice there are many examples everywhere where SP said if u love allah, fine sing his glories, if u are a christian, then love god, etc.

and lest I FORGET, in regards to chaitanya mahaprabhu.... he was initiated in the sankara order, because it was the way all sannyasis took this diksha at that time. u should know this. BUT, show me where chaitanya TAUGHT advaita and then we ll talk.... there is no contradiction.

 

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dear devoted,



are you aware of the historic rivalries between vaisnavaism and shaivism?



are you aware that vishnu is defeated by shiva in shaivite scripture?



do you think the purpose of these stories is to show objective superiority of one deity over another?


i know it is an offense to consider the chanting of krishna on par with other deities but is this really meant as written or is it written for the emotional focus of bhakti?

do you know that the Timin is a large fabulous fish. The Timin-gila, ‘swallower of the Timin,’ is a still larger one; and there is one yet larger, the Timin-gila-gila or Timi-timin-gila, ‘swallower of the Timin-gila?

the point is that siva and vishnu are fairly evenly matched and on any given day, one could defeat the other... depending on who's having the better day... but beyond all that, vishnu will incarnate to be siva's servant as siva will incarnate to be vishnu's servant as the all in all is that siva and vishnu are really good friends or as you would say, "siva is the greatest vaisnava" or as i would say "krishna is the greatest saivite"

its all one

 

Is this the Shaiva Siddhanta section or something...?
:sunglasse

 

Just kidding...

 

yes, shiva is the supreme personality of godhead

 

I think it's more likely to help make bhakti one-pointed. If a person has a particular form of God or Avatar they believe in it seems only logical that for that person the name of their own chosen deity will be more effective.

There's also an idea I've come across that it's more the actual process of repeating the mantra and the inner concentration that is more important than the actual form of the mantra itself. There could be something in that, but I think the words used are important too.

 

In the case of the Maha-Mantra, both are equally important. Repetiton of the mantra with an emphasis on attention and concentration clears the mind, and the words of the mantra itself are transcendental sounds...Krishna is non-different from his names.

After reading some of Bhaskar's posts about japa and meditation, I've taken to doing about ten minutes of silent meditation after I finish my japa...my mind is truly calm and clear. I've never been much for silent meditation but am going to do a little regularly now.

 

Yea that is good, you may have interest in the life of Vijay Krishna Gosvami who was a descendent in the Advaita vamsa born in 1841. He was a big advocate of Japa with pranayama and meditation.
see O.B.L. Kapoor- The Saints of Bengal

 

Spook, I glad my post was helpful to you. However, be careful with meditation. Wrong techniques can lead to mental/physical illness.

 

The words are important too, mainly because of the meaning they invoke.

Of course there is the famous shloka that says:

"Amantram aksharam nasti
​

nasti moolam anaushadam
​

ayogyo purusho nasti
​

yojakah tatra durlabah"​

​

There is no single letter which cannot be a mantra, no is there a single root which cannot be medicine, nor is there is a single person who is useless. What is rare is the person who can bring those qualities out of them.​

​

​

 

Thanks...I will check it out.

Bhaskar...could you elaborate some on that? I've always heard that seances, occultism, etc, could lead to these things but never traditional silent meditation. I have heard that so-called "kundalini yoga" is a very high powered technique, unsuitable for average people, and can cause possession, mental illness, etc.

 

Kundalini yoga could be dangerous. Sitting in silence is absolutely harmless, if difficult to achieve through all levels of the being.

 

That's what I've been doing...just sitting erect and silent for about fifteen minutes after chanting japa for forty-five minutes or an hour. The silent period seems like a very natural thing because my mind is so calm after chanting...why jump up and immediately get involved in some activity again. I'm also thinking that the silent period is a proper and respectful way to end a japa session, rather than just getting up...I feel like I've done something complete.

 

I don't think there's much danger in that - really, a big part of the reason for all these types of sadhana is to get some inner peace - In a quiet state it's easier to feel the presence of the Divine, and it also helps to stand back from our ordinary activities, and get a better perspective on them.

 

Spook, what mainly causes problems is when people don't understand what theyre trying to do. For example, during meditation some people think they need to focus all their concentration on a particular chakra, usually the sahasrara in the crown of the head. This only ends up causing heavy migraines.

Meditation is a time of intense concentration and mental focus. So if the thoughts are not fully directed towards the divine, then there can be other problems, even insanity.

If you are simply sitting in silence/observing the breath you are fine. That is the simplest and best method.

 

That's all I intend to do...it is helping to bring my mind into better focus after completing japa, and that's the important thing. SP always stressed bhakti first but didn't dismiss traditional yoga practices as long as they were directed toward spiritual life...I've known Hare Krishna devotees who also practiced hatha yoga, TM, tai chi, martial arts, etc.

Regarding your friend...that's the kind of story I read about kundalini yoga quite a few years ago...actually, he got off lucky; there was one guy I read about who was possessed for years by a demon after getting quick "enlightenment" through this practice.

Drugs...I took LSD and Mescaline four or five times around 1970, and that was the extent of my pschedelic use. A couple of times the experiences were definitely of a spiritual nature. That's made me question...would I have become intensely fascinated with Indian spirituality if I hadn't done this? In 1970, Indian spiritual culture was not 5% as integrated into mainstream American thought as it is today...it was very much a novelty even though SRF, Ramakrishna Mission, and other pioneering yoga societies had been around since the 1920's and earlier. I had pretty much drifted away from the Christian upbringing and a friend loaned me Autobiography of a Yogi about the time I took the drugs...AOY was a great, blinding light of revelation and made all kinds of sense, so who knows?

Anyway, maybe drugs were an eye-opener for folks of our generation, Bill, but for people like Nicole, who is young and naturally spiritual, and Bhaskar, who is the same and also grew up in Indian Hindu culture, I see drugs as completely needless and nothing but a Russian-roulette situation...they were for us, too, but when you and I pointed the gun to our heads, we were very fortunate--at least it just clicked. There's so much information available now in the west on the various aspects of sanatana-dharma, there for anyone who wants to take a look. I see psychedelic drugs as nothing but a very dangerous recreational indulgence.

A spiritual teacher of mine, now passed away, used to say "slow and steady wins the race".

I'm reading "Sri Krishnaprem" slowly and savoring every page...it's that kind of book.