A conversation perhaps gone wrong...

?R: btw, since you are into Krishna-consciousness, do you observe Ekadasi?
?Nicole says:? I don't know what that is ...so I suppose not
?R - today(Sunday) happens to be Ekadasi
?Rahil - it is a fasting day that comes almost every 14days
?Nicole - oh..well...happy that to you
?Nicole-lol
?Rahil -fast at least from grains and beans?
?Nicole says:? ahhh...
?Rahil - this site has all the info you can need on Ekadasi http://www.acbspn.com/ekadashis/ekadashi-story.htm
?Nicole - Umm...I used to fast once a week...on Thurs....and I do again for periods ...when I remember...
?Nicole:One day I'll get it consistant...lol...Its all a process
?Nicole says:? Umm...yeah...I don't follow SP ...so I suppose that I wouldn't really do this...
?Nicole says:? But thanks for the site... ?
?R : it's Not about following SP
?R:it is not just SP saying about Ekadasi.. it is Krishna Himself and all the lineage coming from Krishna to this day and the Vedic Scriptures
?R: so even if SP did not speak the Vedic Scriptures Themselves speak it
?Nicole ::yes...I meant all the chants and such seamed to be more about SP
?R:it is not something SP made up
?Nicole :That's all...just becacuse the site looks like it has an emphasis on him...
?Nicole : I believe you that it was prob in the Vedas or something...
?R: well it is a sub-site from a site on SP yes, but Ekadasi regardless of from whom one hears, is what Krishna says
?R:the thing is many others who claim to speak of Krishna withhold about Ekadasi...which is wrong...since Krishna Himself declares Ekadasi so special to Himself
?Nicoleoes ritual really matter that much?
?R: ritual?
?Nicole says:? You can't make people do things if their heart's not in it...you know?
?Nicole says: I mean...its better to fast when you truly want to do something for Him....as opposed to making it a ... "you must do this on so and so day"...kind of thing...you know?....That's always the problem I had with the sabbath day thing...everyday should be for God...not just one where you sit in a room for an hour
?Nicole:Impulsive, pure, sincere love...seams so much more...special? I don't know...it makes me think about Jesus talking about...whatever you do...keep it to yourself...it is not between you and others...for that is ego...not spirituality...but if you are truly sincere...impuslive and do things out of love...that is for God...I will have to find the exact wording...I just remember it....
?R: so because it exists in such an order which reminds you of other 'organized' things, does that make it invalid? the reason i even told you about Ekadasi is because you are/well according to what i gather so far, are accepting of Krishna being the Supreme and chanting His Names etc
?R: so i'd think that His request would be valid to you and not thought of otherwise?
?Nicole: no...I don't say that that particularly is...it just reminds me so much of one of those things...
?R: so? doesn't one have to chant a prescribed number of rosary also in the Church?
?Nicole says:?...it gave me an uneasy feeling to being one of those things that is not part of my path...
?Nicole says:?
lol...you are supposed to...but mechanical repetition is what it is to most people...but its different when you do those things not because you have to but because you WANT to...its got love...
?Nicole says:? ...its different
?R -it is not about Church vs. Krishna anyway. God is one and just because organized Church may have many made up things and all that, does not mean that Ekadasi is similar. the Lord Himself states about Ekadasi, so this Love you speak of you are saying you don't have it then
?Nicole says:? But if it counts...I truly appriciate you thinking of me...
?Nicole says:? ...I am saying that I think its different for everyone...that's why they make different paths...
?R: ok, but what is 'path-discriminating' regarding Ekadasi? it's a clear-cut thing
?Nicole:...I have read the Gita and what have you...I have never seen the thing of which you speak...Ekadasi...I don't think it would be right for me to follow such because you told me to...
?Nicole says:?...that's what I'm saying..I don't know....it just doesn't seem right with me...
?R: regardless of all the Vedic references shown on the website there with all the Scriptural references?
?R:are you saying that there is some chance that it is untrue? that you doubt the Vedic references
?Nicole says:? ...I do things in this weird ass spontanious way...I don't know if its right or not...I am hoping that God is taking my hand and leading me on the path that is mine...and when things are part of my path...I know...and when they are not...
?Nicole says:? The Vedas are very old...and prob. somethings are for time and place...such as the Bible...the lessons are more important...than set physical practices...I think
?R: Ekadasi is not about time and place.. you are trying to make opposition with no foundation vs. all the Vedic instruction....if the same Vedas are so old...why chant Hare Krishna...that is oldest advice
?R:why chant His Name when what He says is His dearmost day is doubted...not picking any fight, but asking you logical questions based on what you say
?Nicole says:? I grew up in a Catholic church...I had never even heard of Krishna...I came upon the maha mantra and I fell in love with the words the sounds...I knew it was right...and I knew nothing of anyone ever telling someone to do it or not to...I knew nothing about Krishna...except that those names were as beautiful and special as any I'd ever heard
?Nicole says:? I have listened to many kirtan CDs...and whenever I hear one fo the names of God (and this is any religion I think)...I don't know...it just hits a deeper chord
?Nicole says:? All the rest of that stuff doesn't really matter...it comes naturally slowly...it starts first with love...and sincerity and desire for something more...and slowly...you are brought to those times and places and lessons...to help you on your way...
?R: Love comes from getting to know better not so?
?Nicole says:?No amount of teachings can make sincere love...I'm convinced...when you love Him...I think you just do...
?R: that's like saying you love a guy jusso...that's infatuation
?Nicole says:? no...its different..Loving God is selfless
?R - that's why they say get to know each other more
?R: and Krishna Himself (since you wanted to bring up Bhagavad-Gita) says that one who knows Him in full returns to Him
?R:so why 'turn away' strongly-evidenced Vedic- information and instruction from this Krishna when learning more about Him/love Him and to please Him is the goal/aim of chanting His Holy Names? when He says this pleases Him most when one observes Ekadasi. why be so doubtful?
?Nicole says:? A friend sent me this...not too long ago...
?Nicole says:?
We always, in
the begining look for God outside. Now it is time that you understand
and feel that He is not only outside but inside us as well. Now you
should try to feel and see Him inside your own self. It is like this
that when you fall in love with somebody, you start meeting him outside
at different places. You try to learn more and more about him and the
love grows into 'prem'. Then a time comes when you cannot remain
separated from him and you want your lover to stay with you inside your
own home or you go to stay with him at his home. Your body, mind and
your intellect together make your own home, now try to bring Him in
there. Love for one in particular is selfish and narrow love, your love
for one and all is true love and prem for the Lord. Do
everything that you want to do, achieve everything that you want to
achieve but do everything as a service to the Lord for His pleasure. No
other practice can be greater than this. Knowledge and enlightment comes
very quickly and easily. Big lectures or practices are not required at
all, just do the way you are already doing... think of Him at all times,
love Him in any form you like (As your little son or father or your dear
husband). Only remembering Him at all times in everthing that you do can
fetch the most desired wonders and you can become the wealthiest person
?R:that still does not justify ignoring His words one still does what is requested by these examples brought fwd here (little son, father, etc.) to please them...so what to speak of Krishna...otherwise why do anything
?Nicole says:? You do these things for Him out of love...You just do...you don't understand why...you just do...
?Nicole says:? And its not ignoring His words...His words are there to help and guide you
?RL and out of Knowledge one can think one is in Love, but if one does not Know as the Lord asks us to get to Know Him, then that "love" is simply a word.
?Nicole says:? But its all within you...
?R: when one does not follow what He asks
?R: how can that be love
?Nicole says:? Did you read the thing I sent you at all
?R: didn't i make reference to it?
?Nicole says:? I cannot explain it any better than he explains it...
?Nicole says:? That love grows...you don't know why...its just growing and developing within you...I have to believe it...because I have experienced it...I am a really different person than I used to be...
?R: since you wanted to bring up BG,
?R:
yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya
vartate kama-karatah
na sa siddhim avapnoti
na sukham na param gatim

But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination
?
?Nicole says:? Don't you see...its not black and white though...its not...If you are loving Him and He is guiding you ...than how can you be going against what he says
?R:it pretty much is black and white it's in print.
?Nicole says:? Its in you.
?Nicole says:? Take this from a bibliophile...I don't disregard books...
?R:so down with the Vedic-instruction and Krishna's request then
?Nicole says:? I promise you that the strenght and inspiration I get from that Gita is golden to my heart...
?R:so what then what i quoted above? the Bhagavad-Gita is what Bhagavan says why disregard it if He Himself says this
?Nicole says:?Says not to disrespect that Gita...yes...I understand that...
?R: so what then is the good excuse to not accept what He says
?Nicole says:? You are not not accepting what He says...if you are trying to instead live it within your Self and learning it and realising it...
?Nicole says:? its different from book knowledge...knowing and believing are different
?R: belief is subject to falter
?R: fact is bold and real
?Nicole says:? I promise you that I could tell you any Bible verse you wanted...but a time ago I didn't live them...and I learned them for real...Truths I knew...but they became a part of me...
?R: fact - Krishna is God and His instruction on Ekadasi is clear-cut. so i dont see the need for resistance.

 

?Nicole says:? Where? I've read the Gita and I don't remember that...
?R:that's why i sent you the website all the references are there throughout
?Nicole says:? But I'm saying...physical practices are for time and place
?Nicole says:?Its different than spiritual truths
?Nicole says:? That's all
?R:this is what that is a big offense to minimize Ekadasi as simply a physical practice when He says this is most dear to Him
?Nicole says:? "Do you do this to: Bathe in river, lake or pond. Chant, while smearing mud upon body: "O Asvakrante! O Rathakranthe! O Visnukranthe! O Mrttike! O Mother Earth! Kindly remove all the sins I have accumulated throughout many past lives so that I may enter the sacred abode of the Supreme Lord."
?R:you ask where in the Bhagavad-Gita. as i quoted from BG "But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination" therefore as i said, if BG states such, then why disregard it when it is revealed in the Scriptures
?R:you are now being external the actual main practice is what is to be done fasting from grains, beans, legumes, and focus on Krishna more all the foundation and evidence is given throughout that website (and not just the front page)
?R:you will see the Scriptural references and see Krishna's words about it
?Nicole says:?That is what I am saying...fasting is external if you are telling people to do this and taht...if there is no love and desire to do such...
?Nicole says:? Its the same as the river thing
?R:"he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination" the same Krishna says that
?R: is the same one Who says to fast from grains, beans, etc., on Ekadasi and all this foundation is revealed here
?R:i dont see why such resistance as if i make it up or as if i am tricking you into something ill...anyway, i did my part.
?Nicole says:? I would like to check this...No offence to you...but I have a slight suspicion with ISKCON things...I'm not saying you are trying to trick me...but I firmly believe that this is part of your path and service...Not mine...You may not understand.......and I don't think I can make you do so....and I probably will stop trying quite soon
?R:ISKCON has nothing to do with 'owning' or the only Krishna-conscious-organization that will tell you face down that Ekadasi is real
?R: Krishna Himself is saying this
?R: so i dont know what is the resistance
?R: this ain't about ISKCON..or mine...or SP
?R:they happen to be the medium through which i learned and developed re-connection to Krishna yes, but no one owns Krishna that they can manufacture Ekadasi to fool the general public
?R:all who claim to know Krishna or instruct/teach about Krishna will tell you Ekadasi is real and those who cover it up simply do so to let ppl not be serious
?Nicole says:?Umm...I've had the experince with ISKCON and funny translations of the Gita
?R: it exists as it did millions of yrs
?R: that still has nothing to do with Ekadasi being a doubt
?Nicole says:?That's all...that's why I just feel skeptical about it...
?R:you are bringing in unrelated 'arguments' which are not applicable
?R:and you will make me copy and paste once again what i just said.
?
?Nicole: That is the other part on why I have doubts of it...
?R:all who claim to know Krishna or instruct/teach about Krishna will tell you Ekadasi is real and those who cover it up simply do so to let ppl not be serious
?R:ISKCON has nothing to do with 'owning' or the only Krishna-conscious-organization that will tell you face down that Ekadasi is real...Krishna Himself is saying this...so i dont know what is the resistance ?
?Nicole says:? That is why...I have had bad experience with ISKCON devottees giving me a hard time... that is the truth...ok...one is that I do not believe in this ritualistic such to an agree...I grew up with that....the other is my bad experiences...ok?
?R: as i eventually told you, 'i did my part'
?Nicole says:?I know....
?R:up to you now to ignore or not
?
**in which I change the subject...sort of**
?Nicole says:? Someone asked me this the other day...and I'll ask you...while we are on a similar topic...Why do you love God? Just a question to talk about....I kind of stated my answer...just curious...and you don't have to answer if its too personal...Because I can respect that
?R-i never claimed to love God
?Nicole says:?You follow the path of Bhakti yoga and you do not love God?
?R:i never claimed to follow
?R:i plainly repeat and reveal as i was also repeated to and revealed to
?R:the Truth
?Nicole says:? Than why bother?
?Nicole says:? Is not the point of it all Love?
?Nicole says:? There is no point in repeating and revealing if there is no heart to it...?
?R:sure, but like i typed many times throughout this chat, the means to attain that Love, to revive that Love is instructed by the Subject of that Love
?Nicole says:? Yeah...but surly you already have that Love...you always have and you always will...its just a matter of realizing its there...embracing it...knowing you are that Love because you are made from it...
?Nicole says:?And than you just got to figure out how to stay with it for real...
?R:"the means to attain that Love, to Revive that Love is instructed by the Subject of that Love"
?Nicole says:? I don't know...it doesn't make sense...but it does...
?R: it is not up to anyone's whim and fancy - "he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination"
?Nicole says:? I know...but you can still love God all the while..it isn't that perfect love...but He still accepts it because it is yours and it is given fully and truly
?Nicole says:? Can you not do both?
?Nicole says:? It just isn't black and white...there's a certain amount of gray area where you just kind of hold on and have faith...
?Ras i also repeated before) just as one has faith to accept the chanting of Krishna's Names as His instruction/advice to attain/revive this Love for Him, similarly His other words and instructions are equally valid.
?R:but you are making me repeat my same words again, when i have 'done my part' and you have stated what you have
?Nicole says:? Let's put it this way...you know how Krishna says in the Gita that there's a certain type of mat you have to sit on to meditate...well frankly...I don't even know how to get that kind of mat...but I really don't think he cares so much about what kind of mat...but rather that you are looking for HIm within yourself...
?Nicole says:? You have spit words that others have told you out at me...what you have learned...but what do you feel...?
?Nicole says:? That is why I keep asking you...
?R:Krishna is God what He says is the Truth and goes Ekadasi is His request simple
?Nicole says:? Trying to make a bit more conversation about spiritual experience...if I wanted you to spit Gita verses at me...I'd go read it again...
?Nicole says:? I'm not even talking about Ekadasi anymore...I'm just talking about spiritual experience...love...finding God...
?R:as for the 'mat' the Bhagavad-Gita is not isolated within itself upon reading everything you'd see the conclusion at the conclusion, which would logically make you not be even thinking about this 'mat' at that point, so perhaps you do need to 'read it (all) again'
?Nicole says:? I was trying to make a point with the mat about things being for time and place...
?R:the last time is never enough, for anyone
?Nicole says:?That's why I was talking about it...
?R:yes and i made a point of it as well
?R: that for all time and place His conlcusion is valid...and that conclusion 'to give up all varieties of religion and just surrender onto Me. I will deliver you, do not fear' includes His instruction to chant His Names and also his dearmost day Ekadasi
?R: all bona-fide acaryas will reveal this
?R:no doubt...as i said, i have done my part.
?Nicole says:? And see...I am still reading that different...
?Nicole says:? I'm seeing it as just giving everything you have...all your love to God...it doesn't matter what your actions are...or your fruits of them...you just detach it all...its all His...your His...your love is His ....and no matter what action you do...it is His...even if you make a bad choice...you still give it to Him
?Nicole says:?I don't see it with any ritual...Why do we chant Hare Krishna? Because His name is Him...it is joy...it is to Love him...and because we Love to sing His name...It is being with Him...But just breathe....and you are with Him
?R: "I'm seeing it as just giving everything you have...all your love to God...it doesn't matter what your actions are...or your fruits of them...you just detach it all...its all His...your His...your love is His"
?R:- it is not up to anyone's whim and fancy - "he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination"
?R: you will make me repeat myself all night
?Nicole says:? As long as you are thinking of Him whilst doing it...its Him
?R:Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
?Nicole says:? Tell me what you think...not that same Gita verse...give me your own words...
?R:Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
?R: my words are insignificant - what the acaryas and pure-devotees of Krishna have revealed to us all from Krishna Himself, as well as Krishna Himself, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, is what matters
?Nicole says:?Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare... ?
?R:who am i or anyone to upstart that with other opinion
?R: so like i said, i have done my part
?R:Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
?Nicole says:...all that is important too...but there is more than other's experiences with God...you have to have your own too...however small and insignificant...
?Nicole says:?...even if it was just a feeling of extreme joy whenever you ever sang His name
?R: this won't ever change the fact of Ekadasi.
?Nicole says:? Shared His name in one of your songs with others...hoping it will give them joy...I don't really care about talking about that...don't get hung up on the small stuff...look at the big picture... that existance, knowledge, bliss
?Nicole says:? Besides I haven't been talking about that for a long time now
?R:Ekadasi is by no means a small thing
?Nicole says:? It is a part of your service...I can understand that...for you it is important
?R:if/when you choose to read the evidence you will see yourself
?Nicole says:? I did read it...
?R:not 'for me it is important' God says it is
?Nicole says:? :: head desk::
?R: i can also choose to not observe it but that does not change it being real and being Krishna's request
?Nicole says:? So for every person who is a Christian who doesn't know that this is God's request...what of them?
?R:you will make me copy and paste all night -
?Nicole says:?No...Stop...Tell me what you think...Right now....From your heart...No copy/paste,,,No repeating...
?R:you will make me copy and paste all night -
?R:"so because it exists in such an order which reminds you of other 'organized' things, does that make it invalid? the reason i even told you about Ekadasi is because you are/well according to what i gather so far, are accepting of Krishna being the Supreme and chanting His Names etc
?R:so i'd think that His request would be valid to you and not thought of otherwise"
?R:from "the reason..."
?Nicole says:I understand all this...
?Nicole says:? But still...you insisted so much on this being the only way...
?Nicole says:?...and its just not
?R:you asked a question "So for every person who is a Christian who doesn't know that this is God's request...what of them?" as i replied, this is the reason i 'ventured' to even tell you
?R:which i pasted there
?Nicole says:?ok.
?Nicole says:? But do you honestly think that they are wrong?
?R:is eating other animals when God clearly says 'thou shalt not kill' wrong?
?Rh yea, we don't want to go into that again..
?
**Btw...I am a vegetarian...but I kind of am in a gray area as to how I feel about meat eating as morally wrong...environmentally wrong...most def...ethically...don't really know...my gray area has been attacked by this person before...**
?Nicole says:?I knew you were going to bring that up at some point
?Nicole says:? lol
?R:i can go thru it again you know, just like i have repeated myself more than 2 times tonight
??Nicole says:? As far as I'm concerned....everything happens for a reason...everyone has different paths for a reason...
?Nicole says:? And yet ...you have not told me one thing from your own heart...except that you have told me so because you thought I would follow it...
?R: none of this negates the fact of Krishna, chanting Hare Krishna, and Ekadasi being His request
?Nicole says:? Krishna is just one form of God...for those who follow him...perhaps it is for them to do...
?Nicole says:? For those who follow another form...perhaps they are meant to love and serve in a different way
?R: ah again, the Scriptures reveal the exactness of this
?R: that Krishna is the Origin and yes He has incarnations....coming from His 1st expansion of Maha-Vishnu
?R:and none of this still negates Ekadasi...which was my point
?Rther Vedic authorities Lord Shiva, Lord Brahma, Narada Muni all attest to the fact of Ekadasi
?Nicole says:? Vishnu is the made form...Krishna came from Him...but He is still a form of Supreme Brahman...yes?

 

?R:for they are all Krishna's servants
?R:no
?R: the Supreme Lord Who is Bhagavan is the Origin
?R: Bhagavan has qualities and so has effulgence
?R: this effulgence is His brahmajyoti effulgence
?R: mayavadis and impersonlists try to negate even His Personality
?Nicole says:? It doesn't matter...he is both personal and impersonal
?R: Krishna is the Supreme and the Origin According to Srimad-Bhagavatam He is the Origin and all the Mahajans including Lord Shiva, Brahma, etc. attest to this.
?R:it does matter
?R: for they try to confuse the masses with this...and not give Bhagavan His real glory and worship
?Nicole says:? ::head desk::
?Nicole says:? Bhagavan is an avatar...one whom I love very much...he is an image of that which lives in us all...He came to earth for a reason...just like Jesus did...He was God in a body...but at the same time God was still everywhere...yes?
?R:good Lord now where do you get this
?R: Bhagavan literally means 'He who is full in all opulences'
?Rnly One Person is that
?R:Krishna
?Nicole says:?Because Krishna was God...but so were there other forms...
?Nicole says:? Jesus was God too...He didn't say I and My Father are One for no reason
?R: Krishna is everywhere yes also He is Bhagavan He is also Paramatma within the heart and within each atom
?R: Jesus is not God
?R: Jesus is Jesus Christ - Jesus of Christ - Jesus, SON of GOD
?Rure devotee, spreading GOD-consciousness
?Nicole says:? Christ=Krishna= Christ Consciousness= Krishna Consciousness...Jesus was the person...Christ was God
?R:the pure-devotee never claims to be GOD for he isn't
?R: exactly therefore Jesus is not God
?R: he is of God, Jesus of Christ...servant
?Nicole says:?Just as Bhagavan the person and Krishna God
?R: pure-devotee
?Nicole says:? no...
R; yes
?Nicole says:? I grew up Christian...this one I am pretty sure
?R:growing up however has nothing to do with the Truth
?R:so i can grow up Satanist doesnt mean Krishna is not God
?Nicole says:? You go tell every Christian in the world that Jesus is not God...
?R: growing up being told that green light means stop doesnt change it notbeing true
?Nicole says:? You are going to break thousands of little old ladies hearts who love Him as their own
?R: you are the one who brought it up!
?Nicole says:? As their friend and God...
?R: i simply address it
?Nicole says:? You tell me that Jesus is not Christ...God...
?R: or do you want me to nod and pretend 'ok ok yes yes'
?R:yes that's right
?Nicole says:? No...we are discussing...
?Nicole says:? This is not an argument...I promise you that I will never make you think what you do not wish to think
?Nicole says:? I would never do that...because I would not want you to do such to me
?Nicole says:? I appologize if it ever comes off that way
?R: even a clear-cut atheist can see the evidence in the Vedic-scriptures that Krishna is without doubt the Supreme Lord
?Nicole says:? I find that hard to believe since an atheist doesn't believe in a Supreme Lord...They think we were some "Cosmic Accident"
?R: this has nothing to do with belief or sentiment so bringing up 'little old ladies' ' has no bearing here with facts
?Nicole says: I'm saying ...you are going to tell a whole world of people that only your religion is right...that only it is the truth...
?R: from the navel of Maha-Vishnu came the lotus from which Lord Brahma was born
?Nicole says:? When there could be in fact many rivers that lead to that same ocean...
?R: how then can Maha-Vishnu be Supreme, when the same Srimad Bhagavatam states that Krishna is God and from Him comes Maha-Vishnu (among other many Vishnus for different purposes) and also Lord Brahma extensively goes on and on about Govinda/Krishna
?R:that He is God
?R: in parampara, not adulterated by any selfish motive or to draw the ppl away from Krishna
?R:just as many scholars try to do and succeed
?R: "I'm saying ...you are going to tell a whole world of people that only your religion is right...that only it is the truth..." that is far from anything HAVE said...i do not claim any religion to begin with
?R: secondly, Jesus Christ is not God
?R: thirdly Jesus Christ is Jesus of Christ, Jesus of God
?Nicole says:? No he isn't
?R: fourthly, Krishna is God and Jesus is not Krishna but Jesus is a servant of Krishna
?Nicole says:? Father, Son and Spirit are One
?Nicole says:? Its all the same...
?R -ahh again you speak with mayavadi-adulteration.. 'never hear the Scriptures from Mayavadis - they will take away your love for Krishna'
?R:their aim is this talk of 'one' and try to make everything 'one' and their goal is simply the brahmajyoti effulgence...even historically they fall in place
?Nicole says:? What? I feel like all you are doing is telling me that all you speak of is the only way..
?R:about 2500yrs ago Krishna incarnated as Lord Buddha to stop the ppl from misusing the Vedas to murder animals
?R: and so He came as Buddha and established Ahimsa
?R: the Vedas were kicked out...totally...by Buddha
?Nicole says:? God incarnated...Krishna is God...Buddha is verly God too...just as Jesus...just as Durga...just as any of them...
?Nicole says:? It matters not
?R: no way
?R:no way
?R: you are very confused.
?R:and this is what they do.
?Nicole says:? I'm not confused...not at all...
?R: and upon being confused, you are not open to even listen to learned fact which i tell about
?Nicole says:? You read a book by any great yogi...outside of the tradition you are accustomed...
?Nicole says:? Read a book by Yogananda...read one by Sri Ramakrishna
?Nicole says:? You will see your truth is the same as other truths...
?Nicole says:? That its all God...
?R:and why? what credentials? mayavadis come in many forms and their purpose is one
?R: hm
?R: that is such a blasphemy to God
?R: you know something, i think we have to stop speaking here.
?R:Hare Krishna
?Nicole says:? What?
?R: i am gone
?Nicole says:? I am discussing with you
?R:thanx for everything. but bye.
?R: Hare Krishna
?Nicole says:? I am not saying it is not right...
?Nicole says:? That's really really...closeminded of you
?R: thanx
?Nicole says:? And I'm sorry that you feel that because I find a different path...that I am not worthy to speak to
?R:i also told you you are being closeminded above
?Nicole says:? How? How is saying that all paths are God closeminded?
?Nicole says:? Please explain that one to me...I must know
?R: you are very confused.
?R: i am gone.
?R:Hare Krishna
?Nicole says:?As you wish.
?Nicole says:? Hare Krishna. I'm sorry you feel you have to end a friendship in such a way...I really am...all I wanted to do was discuss with you...I never said I was the be all, end all...that would be foolish...but I was tossing ideas around...things I have learn ...my path...and what I have learned all the way thus far...and I'm sorry that you couldn't be bothered to even listen...I'm really sorry. But as you wish my friend...perhaps we will talk again...my thoughts and love are with you... ? Hare Krishna *peace and love* Nicole
?-------

Yeah...so I officially "quit at life", as it were...did I say something wrong? I just wanted to discuss...yeah...so...I guess I'll prob. not be talking to him again...you can disregard this if you like...and if I did say something wrong please let me know...I just want to understand.....

 

Cripes.
I think I had a harder time reading this than I did the first time I read the Gita

 

yeah...it didn't exactly copy well..I wanted to keep the person's name secret...as for content...Lord...I don't even know anymore...

 

It looks to me like you might as well be speaking to a brick wall Nicole -

 

Perhaps so...I was just discussing with him...and he just up and decided that I wasn't worth talking to anymore... ::shrug:: I just thought it ended up and interesting conversation...so I thought I'd post it... ::shrug::

 

I guess this person is what you'd call an ISKCON 'hardliner'.
Particularly offensive are the remarks about Buddha being an incarnation of God who came only to end meat-eating.
For one thing, Buddhists don't have a 'God' - it is a non-theistic religion. And to say Buddha's only role was to end animal killing is bad because 1) it denigrates Buddhism, and millions who sincerely practice it, 2) his mission was an obvious failure, as many in India and other places still eat meat.
This is typical of the nonsense many ISKCON types repeat from Prabhupada's books. Mostly they are wholly ignorant of Buddhism.

And from the tone of your pals remarks, it's clear he actively hates 'mayavadis'. Such attitudes have no place in any genuine spirituality.
- all these folks are interested in is establishing through distortions of truth their own very limited and feeble view.

 

::nods:: This was sad to me too... as was the Buddhist thing....

 

nicole, there is such a thing as righteous anger and that when it comes to your heart, embrace it as an aspect of god... you were very humble and forgiving with this zeolot... maybe too humble and forgiving as he took great liberities to insult you, your spirituality and great saints who gave you inspiration

 

Nicole:

As a follower of Srila Prabhupada, I want to let it be known that I in no way endorse or support the kind of behavior that has been described here, and am sincerely sorry to hear that you got subjected to it .

I find it extremely hard to comprehend that people of any faith still think that this offensive style of "preaching" is going to have any kind of good effect at all...I've many times been an unwilling subject of it as well; I live in the Bible Belt part of the south and it mainly comes from Christians, especially a relative who is more or less a clone of the leading evangelist over on the Christianity board. This guy has done exactly the opposite of what he intended...if there was ever a small chance that I might embrace evangelical Christiantity, it's gone for good now.

All this treatment does is leave a person feeling angry, insulted, and violated. Really, the only way to convince others of the truth and effectiveness of your beliefs and spiritual practices is by how you live your personal life and behave toward others.

As far as ISKCON goes, I guess I've been around the local temple so long and am much older than those doing the preaching, so they just ignore me...I have been in the line of fire for some heavy ISKCON stuff but it has been many years...reading your posts brought it back.

 

in srila prabhupada early years in the states, before he was honored with the title by his disciples, he was once being interviewed and the interviewer was very aggressive and s.p. throughout the interview stayed very centered and humble and at the end of the interview, the person interviewing stated, "dear sir, you are a true gentleman"

at times, we may wish to be humble so as some may truly see the light

but i wonder if this iskcon devotee made any such understanding

in visiting iskcon temples on ekadasi years ago when s.p. was present, one was treated to lots of sweet rice (a grain not to be eaten on ekadasi) as it was understood that this renunciation of grains was a devotional practice of commitment to the guru and not a Law of Krishna who got really pissed off if any one on the planet ate grains on these days

anyways, s.p. is a mixed bag for me as truly, there are lots of profound echoes of a deep spirituality ringing through his words and actions and some ideas that i choose to let go... isn't the understanding to be swanlike and suckle the lotus nectar amidst the water?

bhaktisiddhanta saraswati prabhupada was similarly profound in his instructions to his disciples to encourage his disciples to spread the compassion of chanting of the holy names of Hari... once his disciples upon returning to him and describing the empty hall of the auditorium of where they went to preach, they said they did no preaching... he then told them, "then you preach to the walls"

i take inspiration from spook13 who has in his own way of great humility and integrity, listened to our gripes and grudges about his spirituality he has recieved from srila prabhupada and has shown with his heart more than his head, the awakening it is all about... i bow to your lotus feet

 

Good words there from Spook and Chief Cowpie.

I've always said that even if I don't accept many of Prabhupada's teachings, it's more the style of presentation by some in this narrow and hateful way, and the misdemeanours of senior followers which is my main gripe.
In the end, with philosophy, who can say ultimately what is absolutely right or wrong? To me it seems arrogant to believe one's own philosophy is the only correct view. As the Chief said, or implied, it's the heart that counts a lot of the time. The exact form of one's belief or faith - the details - may change with time, but still, what is in the heart remains constant, although as we grow and learn to be more open we may experience that with greater clarity and intimacy.
In line with this, our ideas are sure to change too - so a certain flexibility is necessary. That's one of the disadvantages of dogma - it is just too fixed. It can even lead to a repression of what is in the heart.

My only advice to Nicole would be not to take any of this raving to heart, and really just to try to avoid such encounters where possible. Presenting rational arguments to such persons is a waste of time, and actually, can just serve to make you even more open to attack. Best thing one can do is say a little prayer for them. Not much else.

 

My dearest friends,

Thank you all for your kind advice in this manner. It is often hard to remember that people are not so open to different view points or what not...I have no problems with ISKCON...I just don't think its the path for me...for those who find it as their own... such as Spook...I respect you and hope you find comfort your path...truly there are beautiful things about this path (as others) and I think there are true benifits from its main feature...the Names of God...


Well...as far as things go...I had some correspondance back and forth with the person whom this conversation was with...he apologized for storming out...preached to me some more...when I wrote back to him...he decided that we could not be in contact anymore...for it was not right that I didn't recognize "truths"...

::shrug:: Its probably for the better anyway...I do not have time to "beat the dead horse"...

This is kind of how I feel about the whole thing of spirituality...that is why I enjoy talking to people of different faiths...I love to see the common ground...not the differences...I am a member of a group called the Woman's Interfaith Action Group on campus...and I have been so inspired by these beautiful women... each person's unique spirituality truly has something to teach each and every one of us.

-ÒIt is not how much we do,
but how much love we put in the doing.
It is not how much we give,
but how much love we put in the giving.Ó- Mother Theresa


Thank you all again for your responses.

*peace and love*
Nicole

 

nicole, i would just say (as a member of iskcon) that this individuals rant was outta control. i, myself, try and not associate with such persons, but rather the like minded individuals who are into sharing, loving exchange etc.

and a side note, this person failed to mention that even if one doesnt observe ekadasi, prasadam retains its purity, regardless of the presence of the papa purusha. following ekadasi is really only for strict observers of sadhana. to increase their devotion and not to increase their anger or hate for those that dont follow. i cant stand these types of fanatics. ughhhh.

they tend to give us a bad name. and we r not all bad. some of us try and be open to new ideas.

much love
manu

 

CC...thanks sincerely for the good words...no lotus feet here, though, just a pair of size 9 1/2's last time I looked.

 

It is important to recognize the spiritual darkness which is in others and not feel insulted by their actions. I have a friend who is very spiritually dark, constantly lies, is paranoid about all manner of silly things, has a great fear of oneness because he has never truly confronted his fears in a way to see that they are unfounded.

The other day, he thought he was insulting me by saying certain things, and I told him the truth, that he was just not aware of what was going on. He went on to say several other things that he thought were insulting, which indicated his lack of perception (to me). He ended up leaving after saying "sorry, I won't bug you anymore". I said "Later bro, have a good one." That he thought what he said was insulting only indicated his own personal ignorance of reality (he has not yet been made aware of certain truths, or fears them so much when God brings them up, that God is merciful and takes them away).

Our little baby rat used to poop itself and hide itself in the corner when we put food in the cage or petted it. Now it is better (although it still has a way to grow). It takes a while for a new soul to understand love, even the love that hides the truth of its existence because of a soul's fear.

 

___ "Do not try to change anyone externally, attacking behavior, though you may see clearly that it needs to change. That is the old approach, the very cause of warfare. Share your experiences. [Where you are invited, you are empowered. Offer your perspective only where there is welcome.] Tell your own story. Share the wonder, the joy, the excitement, the benefits that you have come to know in service to the Presence that is rising on the Earth. Do not prescribe details of how to live. Share the Spirit of life that knows all things. In that sharing my Spirit will awaken. If ever my spirit stirs, even momentarily, the seed is sown. Your words may be forgotten, but the Spirit of your words will live on."

________________—Vision by Ken Carey