Traditional Hinduism & ISKCON

Should be illuminatus. *

 

Ohthe irony.

 

As a wise man once said "that's what you get babe".

 

although i am new here, i must say the harsh words for srila prabhupada are incredible (aside from spook 13) bhaskars unfair treatment of SP is astounding. bhaskar accuses srila prabhupada of being racist etc and repeatedly bashes western vaisnavas. as i think the only western vaisnava here i take great offense to a lot of the things being said. i dare say, he is guilty of the same racism. in the veg post, he says that he was born HINDU, implying thus, that he knows more than someone, who is lets say, white. superficial to say the least.

i grew up in india, learning sanskrit and studying authentic vaisnava practices (not only within iskcon bhaskar- i spent 4 years also with a sri vaisnava family who gladly accepted us western vaisnavas). the fact that bhaskar uses words like "my religion" etc and "hindu" shows how limited his knowledge is. for someone who apparently knows sanskrit, u should know that the word hindu is not sanskrit and appears nowhere in shastra.

now i understand why u (bhaskar) would have a problem with the translations of these devotional texts, u are a mayavadi, in that u believe that the ultimate reality is to merge the mind with the supreme brahman. u state that this is the goal of bhakti. this is ur opinion, there are millions of vaisnavas (in india as well) who would disagree with u. ur very forceful behaviour leads one to believe that u alone possess the truth. maybe according to u, but urs does not reflect the opinion of madhavacharya, ramanujacharya, chaitanya mahaprabhu and definately not that of srila prabhupada! i personally dont care if u think that the ultimate reality is the brahman feature, but u neglect to mention the essence of bhakti (for most bhaktas lest i be guilty of the same generalizations as he), which is bhagavan (the personal and beloved form of god) and not merging with the absolute. u have remarked how SP's translations are wrong etc, but it is not YOUR translations that appear worldwide and appreciated by scholars. u are very quick to condemn, in the veg. post u call us damn hare krsnas and bastardizing YOUR religion. u are arguing from a very emotional point of view, y do u hate us so much? i dont hate u, i dont even kno u, y cant u extend the same courtesy?

i would also watch the slanderous (regardless of the past abuse with iskcon) things u say bhaskar in regards to SP, who never promoted abuse of any kind, was equal to all -pandita sama darsina-(he gave women the gayatri and put them on the altar- my wife is one them- she also is a masters in indology) and for us 2nd generation devotees, even ones that suffered abuse, i know of very few that blame prabhupada for the misdeeds of others. many of us have very fond memories. i think these are valid things to kno, cuz of all i have read, no one here has provided direct experience (or has represented the point of view of a hare krsna), but only what they have heard or misread. lets take the abuse of women for example, the mistreatment of women in iskcon happened when SP was absent and then when he left the planet. he cared very much for his vaisnavis (he did not consider vaisnavas to be either men or women but jivas- spirit souls) and when he heard of any abuse he rectified it immediately. in india, at the time he was considered revolutionary! i would ask all of u, did u kno that when one man (a new sannyasi) was agitated by the sound of a womans voice, prabhupada told him that it was HIS problem, and from that time ordered that every morning to greet the deities (srngara arotika) would be yamuna devi singing brahma samhita, and this, that so the misogynist could learn that there was no difference between men and women spiritually.

yes prabhupada had a very strong personality, but he displayed extreme kindness, to women, to his gay disciples and to those who suffered. he told christians that he would help them love christ more if they didnt feel so attracted to krsna....the same for muslims, he told them to sing the 99 names of allah, and to sing them with love. i am not sure how many of u are aware that his books are used in universities all over the world and appreciated for their accuracy, (not by hare krsnas either, but by sanskrit scholars).

i think a lot of u are throwing out the baby with the bath water. and none of u have any direct experience, these are sweeping generalizations, and i want u to kno that some might take offense to some of these generalizations. i am one of them. i, myself, would try and never do this. i feel for ppl who are all about love, there was a lot of hatred spilled here. quel dommage. i hope some of u can understand how someone who is directly connected to these teachings be offended by some of the remarks made herein. not that u have to agree with SP teachings, but possibly see a side of him that has been neglected here. a loving saint, who came with nothing materially and much to his own detriment, but as a service to his spiritual master, to spread love of god, the essence of bhakti.

your servant,
manu dasa

 

Although I responded sufficiently to all your arguments on the vegetarianism thread, I think it is better we shift this argument to this forum and keep it here.

You're getting haead of yourself. Spook (one of the few hare Krishnas I respect) and svggrdn and jedi and others are also viashnavas and were here well before you. Of course, not all of them are Hare Krishnas, it is possible ot be a devotee without being a follower of Prabhupada.

 

well then if my intelligence is not very great i am sorry to have wasted ur time. (is that ur tolerance displayed yet again) or perhaps ur arrogance? that was very insulting on ur part in case that eluded u. u criticize prabhupada for attacking someones intelligence, yet u do the same to me.... curious no?

i am well aware that not all vaisnavas follow prabhupada. i am not an idiot. i grew up with sri vaisnavas remember?

i shall just say that prabhupada taught us achintya bheda bheda tattva (simultaneous oneness and difference. and never negated the nirguna aspect. he taught saguna and nirguna. like the sun and the sunlight. the same, but different. as chaitanya deva also taught.

and ur right he said a female is never awarded the sannyasa order. u fail to mention that later he says but a vaisnavi IS awarded the sannyasa order, like gangamata goswamini, sri ma, girija devi, jahnava iswari, so many? female and vaisnava different. and no, not inferior to men.

anyway u have been most insulting, and if this is the way u treat new ppl to this forum, well i guess my point of view has not been welcome. i really think there is another method u can use instead of below the belt shots....

your servant
manu dasa

 

*see below*

 

I never once questioned your intelligence. However, you insist on reading things into my statements which were not there before. I have presented my arguments and rationale in a straightforward manner with plenty of evidence to prove it.

So he says one thing but does another. What is the value of his word then?

Actually you have been hypersensitive and unable to answer any of my questions satisfactorily. If that makes you cry, I am sorry for it. You have a lot of growing up to do, kiddo.

Also let me make it very clear, I have nothing against vaishnavas, western or otherwise. You may try to twist what I say to feel that way, but I have spent many happy and uplifting times with Viashnavas from around the world, on this forum and elsewhere.

And it was your beloved Prabhupada who said that people turn away from an argument or debate because they are unable to defend their own stance.

Further you will forgive me if I am skeptical your statements of fact about what Prabhupada did or did not do. You have already proved your ignorance in that field earlier, claiming that he was the only one to translate the bhagavatam.

 

Manu Prabhu...Haribol and welcome. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada. I hope you decide to hang around.

A little background. I'm American, male, 56 yrs., and have been around ISKCON since 1969, when I first met some of SP's disciples. Never initiated, and don't have aspirations toward it, either by regular guru or by ritvik. I'm a Prabhapadanuga, and consider that sufficient.

Regarding the forum here...yes, I've had lots of discussion and disagreements with Bhaskar and Black Bill about issues regarding SP and ISKCON, but our attitudes towards each other are mutually friendly and respectful. I came to this forum bucause there's always active and interesting discussion on spiritual topics and because ISKCON-oriented forums often tend to be inwardly focused.

One dose that I've had to take straight-up is that there are very intelligent, thoughtful, and spiritual people, other than those who would obviously disapprove, such as fundamentalist Christians, who don't have a high opinion of SP or ISKCON...and I've had to accept the conclusion that it was some kind of singular or ongoing negative perception that has made them feel this way. I don't back down on my positions regarding any aspect of SP and his achievements, but also listen to others and don't aggressively try to change their philosophical positions either...the best way to represent Prabhupada is to endeavor to be a gentleman and maintain an attitude of Vaisnava etiquette.

Many unfortunate events took place in ISKCON and leading disciples betrayed SP after his passing, but you and I know from personal experience that SP's spiritual program works, it is authentic and bonafide, and that he was indeed a great saint who had only the purest of intentions when he made that first voyage to America, and never deviated from those intentions. It's just a huge tragedy that the Kirtananandas and Bhavanandas and others gained the influence they did and caused incalculable harm to SP's movement.

I hope that Bhaskar, Black Bill, Nicole, and others here will eventually meet some of SP's followers who have made progress in self-realization and show genuinely saintly qualities. We need to embrace the fact that we are all sincere followers of sanatana-dharma.

 

Amen spook. Amen. Except for the bit about SP being a saint. I dont doubt for a moment his intentions, but have serious moral and theosophical issues which you know of. But I do hope to meet HKs with true saintly qualities. There's got ot be more than one of you.

 

thank u for the welcome spook,

all glories to srila prabhupada.

what u have written is polite and well thought out. and i dont disagree, although i do take offense to bhaskars appraoch (a little coarse i dare say), and his dismissal of what i can bring to the forum.

above he has written that he has never questionned my intelligence, but if u read all of his posts he says that he has "not doesnt have much of an estimation of my intelligence". and then calls me hypersensitive. there is a fine line between being hypersensitive and a blatant insult. i did not come here to be insulted, but rather have an exchange of ideas. so far, it has not been the case.

and although i dont doubt their intelligence, i would rather not be shot down gratuitously. he has not acknowledged that behaviour yet, and although we all have much to learn from each other, being passive or complacent is hardly the right thing to do.

my goal is not, nor has it ever been to bring EVERYONE to srila prabhupada. just his automatic dismissal is very offensive, things like "there has got to be more than one of u" and other diminutive replies.

and in regards to my hanging around, i must say i wasnt prepared for such a shock, aside from u, i have hardly been made to feel welcome. but rather treated as someone who is ignorant, without intelligence etc, and this is hardly stimulating intellectually. i can honestly say no one has ever spoken to me or approached me in such a fashion.

obeisances,

your servant
manu dasa

 

Dearest Devoted,

I have read through thus far...and kept to myself...about all this...

I, personally have had a more negative experience with ISKCON devotees...but not allÉjust really the oneÕs who preach that theirs is the only wayÉbut thatÕs not just ISKCONÉIÕm not really a fan of most people who try to force other people to see their way...

I have also met some devotees...who are beautiful in their devotion to Krishna...and for that I respect and admire them...I have seen this, good and bad, also in the Christian tradition, which I grew up. There was a girl I went to school with...and she was a hard core fundamentalist Christian...she even told an archaeologist that the A. aferensis, Lucy, was just a bunch of animal bones...and that there's no such thing as evolution. And that just really made me sad and such...but a few years later...she handed me some poetry for the literary magazine I worked for...and I read through it...and it was some of the most beautiful and devoted work I had ever read...and I realized that dispite our points of views of the particulars...we were both essentially looking for the same thing...love of God...

So, I may have had some neg. experiences with ISKCON...and fanatic devotees...but I've also had some positive ones...with people who really taught me a lot...a lot about love...and I don't know...despite all the faults in this and that...its what works for you in the end...as long as you are a) hurting no one...and b) sincere...keep it to yourself...the way you love God...there's a quote from Mother Theresa that has the line "it was never between you and them anyway"... but who am I to say?

So, my friends...although we may all disagree on the particulars for different reasons...let's not forget why we have come...for love of God...I know that is why I come on here...because you have all taught me soo much...and I enjoy reading about Krishna's pasttimes...and different poems and prayers and stories from everyone and their journeys...for better or worse.

So please, devoted...do not leave yet...I would not want you to leave over differences in paths....and welcomeÉagainÉ

*peace and love*
Nicole

 

bhaktivedanta swami did this "automatic dismissal" stuff of everyone and everything from scientists to native americans to ramakrishna to kali worshippers (my Ishta deva) and hence this sometimes appearance of the likewise treatment we give to b.s. of the automatic dismissal... if you can asknowledge that he was aggressive to the point of his own offensiveness of other people and traditions, then there can be reconcilitiation but the presentation that b.s. words were infallible and absolute we find offensive

yes, its cool he brought many people to krishna seva but the idea of "my idea is better than your god" is not... and indeed laughable in the light we are all god

 

Nicole, well said and a good welcome.

Devoted, maybe this isn't exactly appropriate, since this is a spiritual forum, but on a computer game board I got a really hard time at the start from people 1/3 my age...I was kind of offended and put off until one of them said "hey, just look at it as an initiation".

 

CC...what your first paragraph contains is factual and your honest response...I can't argue.

As far as the second, that's the single most important issue that followers of SP have with followers of the majority of other Indian teachers and traditions...We human beings, and all other living entities, as Jivas, or individual souls, are eternal and uncreated, as is Krishna, and share many of the qualities of God but are emphatically not "God who has forgotten who he is" and able to regain this Godhood through yogic practice or whatever. We can revive our forgotten relationship with God, but can never become God.

 

thank u nicole also for a nice welcome.

i shall repeat, i am and have always been interested in the opinions of others, as i feel we ALL can learn from each other. i just dont do well with gratuitous insults, im sure u can appreciate that.

i also have met tons of devotees in iskcon that i dont get along with, i have also met many that are sincere and loving individuals who would give u the kurta off their back. the point is there ARE also good ppl serving within iskcon, i consider myself to be one of them.

and nicole please dont misunderstand, it is not a difference in paths that would make me leave, i believe in the beauty of diversity, what made me want to leave is the overly harsh, and in my opinion, unfair treatment of me by some here, regardless of what one thinks of prabhupada, ppl shouldnt be treated this way.

and CC i hate to disagree, but prabhupada, never presented the idea of "my god is better than ur god", he told ppl that if they loved jesus that was cool etc, i have never ever read evidence of the contrary. i can acknowledge SP was like thunder at times, but he was also like a rose (most of the time) and it is that thats not been presented here. CC i would find it too bad that just because i find the ESSENCE of prabhupadas teachings to be pure and good, and u dont, that we cant get along....

thanx nicole
much love

 

Hello devoted. Nice to have you on board.


I'm one of those who has been critical of Iskcon on these forums - for clarity's sake I'll just restate briefly my reasons.
Above all is the 'phoney guru' scandals which ensued after Prabhupada's departure. I'm sure you're well aware of what happened in some quarters, and I don't want to go into all that again. Suffice it to say that I know several people who were involved, and their lives have been ruined.
I also feel strongly that SP should have had better judgement of the character of his top devotees - I mean, it's not just minor things, but serious stuff like child abuse etc and acts of violence.

I met bhagavan gurudev, who later fell, during the early 80's and I felt he was a total fraud - it was a negative thing, which disturbed me at the time, and it was only later when I found out about the scandals that I knew without doubt that I'd been correct in my impression of this person.

I don't like very much the exclusivist claims that are implicit in many of SP's works, and I don't like his dismissal of other paths of yoga or other teachers.

That said, I know there is a positive side too - In the west, there isn't much access to any kind of Indian philosophy, and no doubt Prabhupada has done more than anyone to spread the Mantra in the west.
But whenever I meet ISKCON people, I always find them vey narrow minded, and in some cases, wholly ignorant of the very philosophies they are eager to condem. No doubt there are exceptions to that.

I know that SP's works come from the Bhakti tradition, and so dualism, or qualified non-dualism is the underlying philosophy. No doubt the disagreement between Bhaktas and Advaitins has gone on for centuries, and I very much doubt that it will be settled on this forum. I think we all have to accept other people's positions here, and hopefully keep the thing on good and friendly terms, even where there is disagreement. I have to say that Bhaskar and I have often disagreed, but still we remain on good terms. Same with Spook and others.

*peace*

 

thank u BBB. i agree with much of what u have said, mostly in how u presented it. i love learning and sharing with others about various aspects of sanatana dharma, and i am hopefully one of the exceptins to the rule u will find from iskcon in that im quite open minded and not dogmatic in regards to my spirituality. i keep my relationship with prabhupada and krsna sacred, and try not to be preachy, norrow minded or what-have-you.

love
manu

 

b.s. was adamant that krishna alone was the supreme personality of godhead, not shiva and not kali... aka, "my god is better than your god"... learn what the philosophy is that you believe in

i rest my case in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu became a renounced monk in an advaiten school of Sankara and yet b.s. presents advaitist thought as being repugnant... quite a contradiction

 

::nods:: And even if he wasn't particularly...most of his devotees that I have had encounters with have felt so...and have lectured me to death about it.... ::shrug::