The bright side of ISKON

I know I have been a severe critic of ISKON and Srila Prabhupada, but I feel it is only just for me to show appreciation of the good things they have done.

First of all building temples in the west has provided millions with the opportunity to worship and practice their faith abroad, even if they dont agree with ISKON principles.

For many ISKON has been a stepping stoe to higher things, an entry point to Hinduism as a whole.

ISKON artwork is extremely beautiful and the paintings that I have found on their various websites have really captured my imagination like no others.

By providing the text and commentary to Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam online, they have given me an invaluable resource which has saved me many hours hunting among books for the right quote. Of course I can't really reccomend or approve of the commentary provided, but the resource is still very useful and was obviously prepared with painstaking effort and patience.

And although I disagree that ISKON brought bhakti to the west, they did broaden the horizons of people considerably.

 

::nods:: Including me...and for that I am thankful...

 

Bhaskar, I'm glad to see you've posted this. It's important to see the big picture. All of us on this forum are certainly very aware of the problems that ISKCON has had, but when you cut it down to the essentials, SP undeniably ranks as one of the twentieth century's most significant figures in bringing Indian spiritual culture to the west, whether you agree with his presentation or not.


To comment on an earlier post in which you said you doubted that anyone in ISKCON had attained the least enlightenment:

If you put together all the people in every spiritual society in the world, those who have truly achieved complete spiritual perfection, the position of maha-bhaghavata, sainthood, Buddha-nature, or whatever you choose to call it, can probably be counted on one hand, maybe two. Enlightenment is a relative, in-process position for most spiritual practitioner/aspirants, whether it be in ISKCON, SRF, up in the Himalayas, or wherever ...we go about our daily business, try to maintain some sadhana, and are grateful and happy when we receive the blessing of some insight or have a good japa or meditation session or participate in an ecstatic kirtan or bhajana. It's little realizations like these that give us faith that the ultimate goal is really there. Even having read and understood the Gita, no matter whose translation it is, is a great blessing and an essential step in the process...Krishna states, in BG 2:29, that "Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all."

For everyone's benefit, other scriptural quotes regarding the rareness of spiritual perfection:

BG 7:3 : Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.

Bible, Matthew 7:13-14:

13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Bible, Matthew 22:14:

For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

I agree that ISKCON have done a certain amount of positive stuff.


My own experience with them goes back to the 70's, when SP was still alive. The whole atmosphere and vibe of the thing in those days was very different from what we have now. Maybe that was just my subjective experience - those were perhaps happier and more optimistic times, and of course I was a lot younger. Also, it was before things went wrong as they did later with the 11 successor gurus.

With Prabhupada's books even, one can get a certain amount of basic info, even if one has to read between the lines to some extent.
Overall, it's better to look at this, warts and all, than just to be focused on material things and semi-unconscious life.

I see a kind of parrallel between ISKCON and the Roman Catholic church to some degree. Both are corrupt, both have been responsible for abuses, both are/were lead by right wing conservative factions. But with ISKCON as with the church, something of the light comes through anyway.
And I know that for some, it gives them a spiritual life which otherwise, parhaps they wouldn't have.

 

lol...I can agree with that ...I grew up as a Roman Catholic...however I have discoved that I grew up in an extremely libral tradition...well...not on everything. But um...the church I grew up in was small and also quite welcoming to everyone...it hardly preached of damnation, but rather of love... and was not evangelical at all...and when I came to Boston I went to a mass at one of the school's services...and was incredibally turned off. It really made me kind of sad... ::shrug:: I don't remember where I was going with this story... ::shrug:: I think you mentioning it just reminded me...oh...there is was...lol...umm...that also with my first experiences with ISKCON...it was very welcoming and what have you...and the further I went on learning of it...and meeting others...I found its limiting aspects and such.... So there's a personal parallel I suppose...

 

That's my experience as well...in the late late 60's and early 70's I had extensive association with early ISKCON and one of SP's greatest disciples, H.H. Vishnujana Maharaja. That good taste and happy rememberance of the early purity and optimism remained with me, and has carried me through seeing all the crises that have occurred in the intervening years.

At this point, I feel that ISKCON has been through and is still undergoing a thorough system-flushing...a better society will eventually emerge and survive. There are many very sincere devotees who want to see the wrongs corrected and a return to that early purity and optimism.

In regard to SP's teachings...they go somewhat against the grain of traditional Hinduism, but you cannot say that they are concocted. SP grew up and lived his entire life in a very strict Vaisnava environment. His translations and commentaries were based principally on the original-language Bhagavad-Gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, and Chaitanya-Charitamrta, as well as a number of other works. Look at it this way...how many Yogis and Indian spiritual teachers have written their own commentaries on the Gita and other scriptures? They can't all agree with each other on every point.

Personally, SP's "dualist" philosophy and his disciples made the most sense and made the best impression on me in the days, 35+ years ago, when I was young, inquiring, and unopinionated. Yes, I will admit freely, it's been a number of years since I've read any version of shastra except SP's, and have never formally studied Sanskrit, but I did do diverse reading and comparison at one time.

Generalizations like "Prabhupada was doomed to failure fom the start" because of the preceding problems in the post-BSS Gaudiya Matha, or "no one in ISKCON has ever become the least bit enlightened" are merely emotional...they don't reflect you guys' usual intellectual integrity.

 

Ok spook - I don't want to get into further arguments on this. Myself, I feel that SP's works miss quite a lot, but thats because I see him as limited as a philosopher, and having only one side of the realization. He reflects, I suppose, a kind of tradition. Perhaps in a sense, SP was 'all heart, not much head'.
My problem comes mainly because of that, but more really because of the level of many devotees I've met who seem very ignorant and even narrow minded.

As I said before, there is a parrallel in my mind with the Catholic church (my own 'native' spirituality).
There are catholic saints and others whom I hold in very high esteem. But I cannot accept many things the church does, and I don't have much admiration for either the current pope or JP II. I wouldn't claim on that basis that it's useless to all - but the trouble is that the vast majority just accept what they're told, and remain unfamiliar with some of the great mystical and other writings that are out there.
In their case too, I'd say it was riddled with problems from the start. And for similar reasons to ISKCON. There are basic church teachings which I consider just plain wrong - for one, the idea of the neccesity of a sacrificial death. There are other lines of interpretation, but these were quite rigorously suppressed in the early centuries of Christianity, or else remain hidden away in little read books.

On the whole, my own experience with ISKCON was mixed. In the 70's I only ever met devotees at festivals, or in the street. I found them quite positive and happy people back then. Later (early 80's) I looked more deeply into it, and after meeting Bhagavan Gurudev, became extremely dis-illusioned. I wanted then to find other Hindu based things to explore, looked at Paramhansa Yogananda, but decided that it wasn't the right path for me. So for some years, I was much more focused in other things - esoteric Christianity mainly.

I don't want to put people off anything which might help - really though, my comments about ISKCON have been intended only to inform others, with less experience than us oldies, because ISKCON themselves are very reluctant to talk about the problems - or so I've found.

It would be good if it could be pulled back into better shape, because for better or worse, it is about the main 'Hindu' thing people know in the west.

 

Dude, is that like when Satan choses Jesus in South Park, then takes a dive at the fight?

 

Bill...no argumentative intentions here...obviously, it came off that way, and I apologize. I was just pointing out that these generalizations made by you and Bhaskar seemed emotional and don't go along with your usually very well reasoned and insightful comments. I'd also like to make the observation that you and Bhaskar are adept at finding the holes in my background and reasoning, and don't hesitate to point it out when you do. Take this as a compliment.

 

Spook - the more we communicate here the more my respect for you grows.
BTW- Bhaskar and I aren't a 'team' - we also have our debates and disagreements here - it is good that on this forum we can disagree, and yet still remain friendly, and open to the other persons point of view. Unlike say the Christianity forum where open war seems to be the order of the day.
As I say, I don't fully endorse SP's works, but like I said earlier, they're better than hours in front of the tv with 'South Park' on. :H

 

No, it's more like many people hear and appreciate the voice of Jesus but only a few really understand him.

 

im glad bhaskar, that u have the scope to see some of the good iskcon has done.

i, personally, would just watch my wording, like saying its a "stepping stone" for some into "hinduism", which implies a very pejorative opinion. it comes off as quite arrogant.

it would be more humble of u (even tho u may not appreciate the teachings of SP) to possibly see that for some this MIGHT be the way. and that altho it doesnt work for u, it doesnt mean that its not an authentic and accepted path for many many ppl. u also say above that indians go to the temple and dont agree with iskcon, this is not my expereince. we have over half of the congregation who are initiated disciples of indian origin, what to speak of the hundreds of thousands in india, like mumbai, delhi, mayapur, vrndavana. i have presided over many a ceremony in india, with respectful indians praying sincerely. even tho, i am of western origin, they have been more than accepting of me being a western brahmana (and as a pujari), which is determined by quality and not by birth.

 

Spiritual growth is not measured by initiation to sanyasa, nor by how many followers you have. I am yet to see an ISKON memer who has shown any sign of having a higher level of consciousness.

I may come of as arrogant and egoistic to you, but I am merely stating my opinion. I think SP was being arrogant when he called Ramakrishna Paramahamsa a "fool rascal."

Still if it gives you some measure of peace and happiness, then good for you. I just dont think the ISKON structure is capable of guiding anyone to transcendental levels. This can be seen from the way it has caved since SP left. He did not have a single disciple who had and real enlightenment.

 

I have met enough to convince me that ISKON doesn't have much to offer. I am sure even there a few rare souls may come up, a tiny drop in the ocean.

I think it is possible. But I seriously doubt if ISKON made any great ocntribution to that.

Wisdom does not belong to any parampara. Ramana Maharshi did not have a parampara. Was he a fool? Was he a rascal? Jesus had no parampara. What about him? What about all the great saints from othe religions?

I never dismissed bhakti. I know it to be a path of the highest importance and power and essential even the practice of jnana and karma.

The number of followers and masters degrees states nothing. Any fool can have followers today. Hitler had followers, he still does. Was he a mahatma?

I have learnt to accept that it flourishes. I am not proud of it and i don't like it, sinceit is a shallow misrepresentation of Hinduism. Not something I can change.

my but you do assume many things. To hate you or prabhupada or anyone else in the world would be a waste of my energy.

 

I see no constructive use in this fight anyway. Let's just leave it at you love your Guru, I have serious ideological amd moral issues with him and his organization. No need to fight about it.

 

Bill...I appreciate the good words.

I'm aware that you and Bhaskar don't gang up on me...you're alike in that you're both skeptical about SP and ISKCON, and have several times more or less simultaneously disagreed with me on that issue. I've also read through some posts where you and Bhaskar disagreed heavily between the two of you. Yeah, you're right, this area isn't the zoo the Christianity section gets to be...I do like to go over there from time to time and try to rattle Mr. Campbell's cage.

 

lol spook!

Hey listen, I want to apologize to you if Ive ever been overly forceful with my arguments. You're the first Hare Krishna I know that hasn't raged and preached at me. Knowing you has given me greater respect for the group, though you're still the only HK I know that doesn't irritate at first sight.

 

Bhaskar...I see you read my post to devoted. My attitude about our discussions here and our differences of opinion are what I said there...I've had to accept straight-up that there are very knowledgeable and spiritual people who have not gotten a good impression of ISKCON. Your forcefulness has almost always been backed up by sound knowledge and personal conviction, and has never offended me...it's just given me fresh insight, in the same way that your knowing me has given you more respect for ISKCON.

 

i hope bhaskar ji, that i havent preached to u. preaching is not my favorite seva, archana is.

i just find it sad that u will apologize to spook for being overly forceful, but u will not accord me the same grace.