"Do you know what it means to come into contact with death, to die without argument? Because death, when it comes, does not argue with you. To meet it, you have to die every day to everything: to your agony, to your loneliness, to the relationship you cling to; you have to die to your thought, to die to your habit, to die to your wife so that you can look at your wife anew; you have to die to your society so that you, as a human being, are new, fresh, young, and you can look at it. But you cannot meet death if you don't die every day. It is only when you die that there is love. A mind that is frightened has no love—it has habits, it has sympathy, it can force itself to be kind and superficially considerate. But fear breeds sorrow, and sorrow is time as thought. So to end sorrow is to come into contact with death while living, by dying to your name, to your house, to your property, to your cause, so that you are fresh, young, clear, and you can see things as they are without any distortion. That is what is going to take place when you die. But we have a limited death to the physical. We know very well logically, sanely, that the organism is going to come to an end. So we invent a life which we have lived of daily agony, daily insensitivity, the increase of problems, and its stupidity; that life we want to carry over, which we call the "soul"—which we say is the most sacred thing, a part of the divine, but it is still part of your thought and therefore it has nothing to do with divinity. It is your life! So one has to live every day dying—dying because you are then in contact with life." Jiddu Krishnamurti "To Die Without Argument" - I seem to like this guy's quotes by the way, this is Burn...
Part of the problem, as I see it, is that Jiddu isn't telling people HOW to die every moment. (I own a few of his works, "On Living and Dying," "The First & Last Freedom," "Exploration into Insight," "On Truth," "The Network of Thought," "The Flame of Attention," and "Freedom From the Known" (My favourite.)) Jiddu Krishnamurti appeals to the intellectual. The existentialist may be left wanting. (For that type of reading I prefer Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj ("I am That") If you like JK you may also like David Frawley ("Beyond the Mind"). I love that book.
Thankyou White Feather Just curious, do you know of any others who speak in less intellectual, and more passionate/feeling? I know JK's writing has feeling, but it is expressed in ways that some appear to have trouble with. He talks about things so very simple, but I get a lot of feedback that he is too complicated/confusing to read. Out of curiosity and interest, do you know of other writers about the subject who express it in more simplicity? Or perhaps in more artful expressions?
Shaman sun I very strongly urge you to read the words of Swami Rama Tirtha, since you seek passion and feeling. HEre is a small exerpt, you may find much more at www.ramatirtha.org. "It is those who are, as it were, kings, princes who stand above all desires; and those alone whose orders are obeyed by the earth, the Sun, and all the elements in this world. They are above desires and their desires are fulfilled. You have only to be above desires and then will the desires be fulfilled. That is the secret of the fulfilment of desires. Let all the miseries, troubles, pleasures, all the magnificence, riches and all the poverty and degradation of this world fall upon you as softly, and at the same time as perfectly as a bright landscape falls upon your eyes. As the landscape passes before your vision, you see everything clearly but softly. It does not burden you; it is not wearisome to the eyes. So live in this world, travel around, pass through the streets of life untouched, the witness light seeing everything clearly but softly, not overburdened, not bothered by anything. If you can do this, you are the sage whose behests the powers of Nature obey. You are that sage."
Although I enjoy some of Swami's writings, I cannot agree with a few statements on that website: "Swami Rama Tirtha was a Vedantin of the highest realization. Vedanta according to him is no dogma or blind faith, but the Reality of realities. It is the realization of our true Self, Sat-Chid-Anand, the state of All-Being, All Knowledge, All Bliss. Swami Rama was not only a religious teacher, but was also a fearless social reformer, and an undaunted patriot. " Highest realization? There are now levels to realization? "Rama guarantees that anybody in this world who reads or hears all of Rama's speeches, would get his doubts removed and is sure to come to the conviction of his own Divinity" Yet another path to follow, to trap oneself in. The guarantee of the individual to realize and understand him/herself is completely up to that individual to see. Nobody can give one enlightenment or understanding. It is an inner realization. Though I enjoy the quote, Bhaskar, from your post "Choosing a religion", and I liked the quote here in this thread, there are particular things about this fellow that don't seem quite right. You get me? Enlightenment and realization are through the hearts and minds of you, and no one else. To follow one's words over another can only go so far. Can you step beyond the words of the teacher? We open our own eyes to see.
Perhaps there is no how. To tell someone how would be to go against everything he had spoken about. He did not believe in ways. There was no way. There was no path. Truth is here. Death is here, in this moment. "Truth is the first step of our existence" - I believe he said. Something like that at least. Perhaps some people don't like him because he doesn't give them the answer they're looking for. I did notice throughout his books and speeches he hinted a thing or two about this 'no way'. At times Krishnamurti reminds me very much of Zen. Krishnamurti encouraged the individual to look within himself and explore himself. He'd state something, but always suggest to the audience that they question his words, question what he was saying. He didn't want them to agree, he wanted them to understand. See for themselves if it is true or not. He even went so far as to say things like, "let's find out if this is true, together", and went through the topic, etc. Perhaps the wording may be 'intellectual', but the overall meaning from Krishnamurti's work is simple, passionate and inspiring (in my opinion). To be, to see, to know oneself, to understand oneself, for the mind to be silent to see what is true. - This is what I've heard from him.
The highest realization is the realization of the highest. For one thing, everyone eventually will reach that realization at some point. That is our final destiny. But also, Rama did not mean hear or read in the ordinary sense, but in the way that vedanta speaks of knowledge as being morethan intellectual comprehension, but actual experience. Whoever actually experiences what Swami Rama is saying, of course will experience enlightenment. I don't know which sections of the site you went to. You should just head straight to the lectures in In the Woods of God Realization. What you say about enlightenment is what he also says in detail in one of the talks (I forget which one). Also remember the time in which he lived was veryd ifferent from ours and therefore of necessity things were expressed differently.
I don't know if there are level of realization. Everybody can see the truth at every moment cuz you r only hidding it from you yourself. We are all realized, maybe the quote "higher" is to say that this person can truely help others to see. When you find a master which shows, and help to see, is it thanks to him that you saw? Peace and Love (may it be a hippy stuff?) Have fun
That is exactly "it". He comes across as cold and intellectual. I find his words uplfting but only because I have had some small satory which makes me sympathic to his words. Others may have problems, like the Zen story of where the sensei says to someone to "Just drop it," and it cannot be done. For example, from Andrew Cohen's Book, "Enlightenment is a Secret," For sheer simplicity I prefer Sri Nisargatta Maharaj because you see the dialogue, it is easier to understand. Osho also spoke simply but some may be prejudiced aganst him. I find his book, "The Book of Secrets" is all one needs to explore meditation. (The original 5 volumes were made into a single 1184 page book.) But there are plenty of books out there that are un-necessarily complex, like Swami Vivekananda's Speeches & Writings. There is just too much fluff and Hindi jargon to wade through. The same can be said for Swami Narayanananda's "The Mysteries of Man, Mind and Mind functions". For "deep" works there is Georg Kuhlewind's "Stages of Consciousness", but it is too intellectually abstract, too philosophical. In a different aspect the same can be said of Robert Augustus Masters' "Truth Cannot Be Rehearsed". My favourite "intellectual" work is David Frawley's "Beyond the Mind." I can easily understand what he says because he doesn't bring in technical lingo, I have a deep connection to what he says because it mirrors my own experience. So I have a very deep affinity for his words. But unless someone has had an inkling, a satory of their own, it may be seen as philosophical fluff, mere words to be dismissed because there is no connection. But there is nothing wrong with Juddu's works, so long as you have an affinity for his words. I just find that there is little technique spoken. On the other side would be Andrew Cohen's words, which are so simple that they are easily dismissed; they lack substance. But for pure kicks and a lot of chuckles, there is no one like U.G. Krishnamurti. Most of his works are free and on-line, ready to be downloaded and printed. But if I were to quote anyone, it would pobably be David Frawley, like: But that may be because his words have a Gnostic "bent".
There may come a time in a meditator's life where one can see that the I, the ego, the mind is dying; one actually will feel as if they are dying. As you watch time stop, as you become separated from your thinking process, seeing it as separate from yourself, the sheer fear of dying will come over you as you realise that your mind is about to die. That fear will make you start to think again. And you've missed... You came so close to the crevice, so close to the pit, so close to the dark night of the soul. But the fear of going insane pulled you back... You've tasted death and now know what it looks like. You'll now take that experience with you and will see that so many that speak of death do not really know what they are talking about. Now you know that Enlightenment means a physical death, and who would want to die? People who talk of seeking Enlightenment don't know what they are really going to find, what they will get. One cannot seek Enlightenment because they will only find death. And having found it most will recoil in sheer terror. That is my experience, that I missed. So when I read anyone saying that one has to die to their mind I start to laugh. Unless you can release love before realising death you haven't got a chance... One has to find love before one should go out trying to defeat death. At least that is how I feel.
