Traditional Hinduism & ISKCON

I agree,
provided the statements are true and bear scriptural sanction. It is not his duty to spread misogynistic or racist beliefs, it is in fact his duty to dispel them. It is also his duty to show respect to other great mahatmas. It is also definitely not his duty to mistranslate and misinterpret the scriptures.

 

Bhaskar - thanks for your comments. What you say pretty well confirms my own reading of this verse based on different translations.


What concerns me about SP's version is the fact that corporal punishment is now widely regarded as a human rights abuse. I suppose that whoever runs the vedabase site has changed SP's translation for politically correct motives.
I'm not sure how many other small alterations have been made to SP's original text, but I do think it's a bit dishonest, as it enables them to present SP as a nice, kind old fellow, which I'm afraid doesn't reflect the truth.
Maybe I'm a softie western humanist, but it seems very incongrous to me that someone obstensibly giving teachings of love should promote punishment beatings.

 

<Ahem.> And regarding the nature of the Self?

 

What of it?

 

The Self - SP was a dualist, despite his 'official' line of qualified non-dualism.

He taught that the Jiva is an eternal individual. The goal of liberation is not to become wholly one with the divine, to merge in Brahman, but to live with Krishna on His transcendental planet of Krishna Loka.
Krishna is the big fire, the Jivas are small sparks - qualitively the same as or one with God, but quantitively less than the Supreme. Liberation comes by reviving one's forgotten relationship with Krishna, which is covered by the lower world and consciousness. The jiva is the eternal servitor of Krishna.
That's a brief overview Kali Das. Please note that this is not my view, I am only summarizing what SP says.

 

That's a very accurate summary. I guess by "qualified non-dualism" you mean the concept of "simultaneously one and different"...correct?

 

Yes, thats what I mean.
The term is bhedabheda - sometime translated (by others) as difference-in-identity.

 

I'm surprised I haven't thought of posting about this before, because it's one of my main contentions with ISKCON philosophy.


It concerns the manner of performing Japa- that is, repitition of Divine names, such as the maha-mantra:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

According to SP's line, it is to be repeated out loud, whilst counting the repititions on a mala (string of 108 beads).
Many other spiritual authorities say there are different ways in which it may be done. It is said it can be done out loud, repeated silently, or repeated mentally. Mental repitition moreover is said to be more powerful.
IMHO that's at least partly because it requires a higher degree of concentration to do it on a purely mental level, and in fact, for the beginner can be quite difficult to do without the mind wandering off, or other thoughts intruding themselves. Practice is the key. It is also said that this practice of mental Japa actually helps to bring the thoughts and the mind under control.
It may be good to start out saying it a few times out loud, then move to silent, then to mental repitition. Beads can be used if they help - but they can also become a hinderance if one becomes distracted by them.
The beauty of this is it can be done discreetly just about anywhere anytime.

Obviously, it's better to say it out loud than not to do any Japa. But these other forms may actually be more effective for many people.

I'm not speaking here about group chanting or singing - Kirtan - but Japa meditation.

 

Good point...I didn't think of that either...japa is so wonderful.

 

Good point Bill. In upadesha saara Ramana Maharishi explains how japa is to be used as a tool to make the mind ready for meditation. And he stresses that the best is mental repetition, a little less effective is silent and the most elementay form is repeating out loud.

 

Prabhupada taught that the daily 16-round japa vow should be repeated audibly, volume level up to the chanter, and the maha-mantra can be chanted mentally at any time or place. The main point is to chant attentively, focusing on the sound and allowing the mind to become still. In one way, it works in much the same way that silent meditation does, as a mind-centering tool, and also works because the words of the mantra are transcendental sound.


One expert longtime chanter that I know starts out audibly and his mind centers very quickly...his chanting takes place partially in the mind and partially audibly, if that makes sense, and is very fast...he can chant 16 rounds with perfect attention in one hour. Generally doing 16 rounds takes about 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati required a daily japa vow of 64 rounds for his initiated disciples. He said that anyone who didn't chant 64 rounds a day was fallen. I would imagine they were very fast chanters with extremely developed powers of concentration. SP lowered the japa vow to 16 rounds per day when he began initiating disciples in America...16 rounds is hard enough and he knew very few in the USA would be willing to take on 64.

 

'Speed Chanting' is something I am not sure about. It could be seen as a manifestation of a desire to get it over with in the shortest possible space of time.

Myself, I've usually found that slower repitition, emphasizing each syllable is better.
I know it's common practice in many schools to do a given number of rounds per day, but I don't really like that approach personally. It seems better to me to do even ten mins of sincere and concentrated chanting, with an attitude of love and surrender to the Divine, than to do the thing in a rote kind of way for hours on end.
Some say just repeating it has benefit, but I think real benefit only comes when the Japa is consciously performed.
Otherwise, it's a bit like those prayer wheels they used to have in Tibet, where just turning the wheel mechanically was thought to bring merit.

 

Yeah...if you do it in the slow kind of way...you just get caught up in it...and that's what's so beautiful about it...that's what I think spiritualizes it... Pray not with your head...but with your heart...

 

True concentration and attention, with speed, only comes after long practice. Around 2 hours for 1,728 (16x108) repetitions of the Hare Krishna mantra is much more average.

A way I've found to improve japa is to say to myself..."OK, I'm going to sit here for an hour and chant eight rounds...I can indulge my mind and let it wander all over the place or be consciously attentive...I'm going to be here an hour anyway, doing this, one way or the other."

 

Interesting you should say that.
Sri Aurobindo said Japa can be done from the heart or the head - in each case the results will be different.

I think the thing is to do it however it works best for you.

 

Speed chanting can be very useful, it can act as a tool to flush oput the mind. When the mantra is repeated a great speed, leaving less and less room for other thoughts, the mind immediately becomes more single pointed. Then when slow repetition is done, it is easy to maintain focus on it.

It is also good to keep mentally or audibly repeating the mantra all day, with or without attention. That way the mind is constantly hearing the mantra, so it becomes easier to focus during those ten special minutes of concentrated japa.

 

This is quite true...I stand corrected....I suppose I was just saying what I feel is best...up I suppose it does depend on the person.

 

Japa for me is head, bhajans & kirtan heart. More discipline is required for japa. In kirtan you're sharing intense energy with others, and using the senses much more, but not focusing the mind so hard. Bhajans and soft kirtan are gentle and laid back and can be done with others or alone with a harmonium. All are good meditations.

 

I received my copy of Yogi Sri Krishnaprem today...very fast delivery indeed from the India Club in New Jersey. I'll get into it a little tonight and start reading seriously when I've finished a reread of Vol. 1 of the biography of SP, Srila Prabhupada-lilamrta...by the way, I recommend this highly to everyone here; it's very well written and extremely fascinating, whatever you think about SP.

 

In 'Yogi Sri Krishnaprem', there are also extracts from letters of Sri Aurobindo to the author. If this gives rise to any questions in your mind regarding Sri A or his philosophy, I'd be happy to answer them if I can, or direct you to answers.

But really, it's all about Krishna - although myself I think a lot of Krishnaprem's insights are universal - anyone on any sincere spiritual path or quest would benefit from his words. He was a great yogi and illuminati.

Where Japa is concerned, it's not my intention to try to deviate anyone from their own method of practice according to their own path. I'm only stating my own ideas, based on experience. I think it's best for people to stick to what works for them.