A fast growing religion, but what does it really seek?

What does Islam REALLY seek? Well, that is simple. Islam seeks to bring about order and peace. We're all somewhat sure of the fact that religion came about during a time in 'civilization', when it was most needed. There seemed to be nothing but social disarray and chaos. Organized religion was basically a moral code of conduct; guidlines to being a decent human being with a dash of spirituality.

Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same God so it should no surprise that Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Quran. Christians call him son, Muslims call him a prophet. It's all the same thing.

Islam is really like any other religion. All religions have basic similarities in terms of what they teach and preach. The differences are minor and really only pertain to the actual practice of the religion and the rituals involved. When it comes right down to it, most would agree that religion is something that should produce only GOOD effects.

Sadly, because there are humans involved, there can be no such thing as a utopia. THIS is where most peoples complaints and eventually prejudices come into play. Religions have been the cause and motivation for many many wars. But isn't that ironic? For that was never the intention! You see, we have the ability to twist things around to suit our needs.

How can something that is thousands of years old be taken literally? (i.e. religious scriptures)? The language is vague and ambiguous and clearly, terrorists have misunderstood the word Jihad completely.
Jihad is defence. Going to heaven immediately upon death if you fight in the name of Allah.

This is of course pertaining strictly to man-to-man combat, as the advanced types of war we have today were unimaginable when the Quran was written. Basically, what it means is that you can kill in self defense when you have been wrongfully attacked. Perfectly legal in many states.
[Going to some subway and blowing yourself up in a bomb and killing innocent by standers is not Jihad. Some may think it is but it cannot be.]
But you see, that is my interpretation of it. To the terrorists, they are defending their religion in God's name and think they are going to heaven. These are not logical or rational people. For only someone irrational wouldn't be able to interpret things to encompass the ENTIRE goal of the religion, which is to NOT KILL.

I ramble. Anyhow, Islam seeks knowledge. One must educate oneself. God also says that he helps those who help themselves. Which means (to me) that we have control over what happens. Islam seeks to make an individuals will strong, through fasting (which is much deeper than purely starving- you don't starve) and deligent prayer.
Islam seeks purity and cleanliness. One must be clean enough to pray. One's mind should also be clean. The guidelines are clear and if one would but read an English translation of the Quran they would realize much.

Islam seeks the truth. "Ilm hasil karo"..."Seek knowledge". It's alright to question, for through questioning you get closer to the truth. I personally find the Subtitle of the main forum (and of course the title of my thread) a tad bit condescending. Are we trying to imply in some way there there is a need for suspicion when it comes to the topic of Islam? It is clear that islam seeks what any other religion does. And that is to have faith in God and in oneself and to be a good kind soul that does things the right way. Humans are far from perfect and like any organization, society or body of people, there are good and bad.

I would personally rename the forum to "Islam. A fast growing religion. Full stop. A reference can be made to Shias and Sunnis as you do with the various Hindu gods, sects of judaism and so forth. I see little need for such a disparaging and subtly accusatory question to the title that is Islam.

 

I agree, islam was the force that came and elevated the people who were sought in polytheism, alcohol, wars and corruption. Not only did it teach them a moral code but it builded up a whole society following a criteria of justice.

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as just witnesses; and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just, that is nearer to Taqwa; and have Taqwa of Allah. Verily, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do.(5.8)

As H.A.R. Gibb has said: "No other society has such a record of success in uniting in an equality of status, of opportunity and endeavour so many and so varied races of mankind. The great Muslim communities of Africa, India and Indonesia, perhaps also the small community in Japan, show that Islam has still the power to reconcile apparently irreconcilable elements of race and tradition. If ever the opposition of the great societies of the East and west is to be replaced by cooperation, the mediation of Islam is an indispensable condition."

First of all, Jesus(peace be upon him) is not the most quoted prophet in Quran, Moses(peace be upon him) is. And HOW can you say that calling him a man and worshipping him as a god is the same thing??? Its acts of shirk(polytheism), and in no way should we support it by saying its the same thing. Its mentioned in the quran several times, just in chapther Maida we find:

"Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything as against Allah when He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth?"

"Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord"

"Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve."

and He ends with: "Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!"

In the chapter Maryam(Mary) He says:
They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
So lets not compare such a blasphemy to monotheism.

I cant agree with you on this one, theres a gigantic difference between the different religions, especially with islam. First of all, out teachings go back directly to the words of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and not true a series of interpolating priests(since we dont even have priests nor a hierarical system!) Islam means and teaches; "Submitting to God on his terms" this is done with sincerity and peace, I have failed to find any other religion that teaches thus.

The Quran is suited for all times and for all men, we are still the same human being with the same needs as those who lives one thousand years ago. The fact that islam can maintain through out the ages is a fact even witnessed by westerne phlisophers such as nobel prize winner George.B.Shaw who said: "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age."

I agree with you that islam forbids terrorism and the Quran does not provoke us for it but how can you claim that jihad only suits in defence? If you do, your denying an established historical fact! The companions of the prophet fought other nations who were filled with corruption, they did not kill innocent, women and children nor did they force upon the christian inhabitants their religion nor did they destroy their houses and churches but they did fight the oppressive goverment.

I know that you mean, the forum name has been bothering me aswell, what do they mean by that?

 

What I mean by all religions being pretty much is the same is that the basic principle's are alike. It teaches kindness etc. Not to kill, steal, lie etc. Good behaviour = reward. Bad behaviour = punishment of some form. That's what I meant. Beliefs may be polar opposites, but the goal of any organized religion is pretty much the same

So when's the forum's subtitle gonna change? So far, two people think it should be.

Make a poll or something. Let's vote.

 

personally, i think it may just be because it IS the fastest growing religion, but much of the western world doesn't know much about it, except what is presented on CNN when they talk about terrorists, or the elections in Iraq, or that sort of stuff

i know when i was researchuing faiths Spring of 2004, it was the first i checked out, but i found that i coulnt understand the information i found on it-maybe it cause i was too young, or maybe they werent the best websites, i dunno--this really doesnt have a point, but i mean other "subtitles' are "Whodabuddah" and whatnot so i dunno

ill finish off this post by thanking you cabd, ive learnt a lot from your posts

 

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

http://www.faithfreedom.org/holiday/phpBB2/index.php


According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.jodkowski.pl/re/MBright.html

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm



http://imrepublican.topcities.com/Islam/islam.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandviolence/

http://www.twin-towers.net/al-farooq_photos.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

http://www.domini.org/openbook/home.htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583

http://www.danielpipes.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/1/index.htm

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

http://www.geocities.com/the_awful_truth_about_islam/index.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/Islam.html

http://www.atcoalition.net/

http://www.taliban-online.info/

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html

http://www.truthtree.com/Debating/posts/755.html

http://kafirnation.com/portal/index.asp

http://www.isralert.com/archives/2005/03/deceit_thy_name.php

http://protesting-islam.com/

http://www.factsandlogic.org




"Modern Liberals, With Some Exceptions, Are Fascists. They Preach Peace At The Expense Of Liberty, Diversity At The Expense Of Common Sense, Equality At The Expense Of Fairness And Choice At The Expense Of Life. They Are The First To Speak About Rights, Yet They Seek To Deny You Yours If You Disagree With Them. They Vociferate The Importance Of Free Speech, Yet Do Everything In Their Power To Stifle Yours. They Demonize The Very System Which Allows Them The Freedom To Criticize In The First Place, And They Are The Last People In Line When It Comes To Defending The One Country On Earth That Would Ever Tolerate Their Hypocrisy. They Are Divisive, Immoral And Utterly Incapable Of Understanding Why Everything I Just Wrote Is The Truth." - Edward L. Daley


http://massgraves.info/

 

DECEIT, THY NAME IS ISLAMISM

By Beth Goodtree
Isralert.com source: Isralert subscriber/commentator Beth Goodtree

In Islam, lying or omissions for the 'greater good,' according to a strict or radical Islam/Islamist philosophy is not only acceptable, it is holy and blessed work. It is called al-Takeyya (or al-Taqiyya) and is a strategy outlined in the Hadiths and supported by various interpretations of some of the Suras in the Koran. We have just seen it in action and most people never even caught the whiff of mental ether the Islamists were pouring into the airways of the already comatose and choking non-Islamist world.

Al-Takeyya is a policy whereby a Muslim may lie, deceive or omit critical truths if it promotes the spreading of Islam AND the conquest of the non-Muslim world. According to William P. Welty, Ph.D., al-Takeyya/Taqiyya is:

"The Islamic principle of lying for the sake of Allah. Falsehoods told to prevent denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned by the Qur'an, including lying under penalty of perjury in testimony before the United States Congress, lying or making distorted statements to the media such as claiming that Islam is a religion of peace and deceiving fellow Muslims when the one lying has deemed them to be apostates." (1)

And here is the definition from an Islam encyclopedia website:

"The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies..." (2)

Now here's where the latest Islamist sneak maneuver of al Takeyya/Taqiyya comes into play. The Islamic Commission of Spain issued a decree against al-Qaeda terrorist leader Osama bin Laden. They did this in response to the bombing of a Madrid train last year by al Qaeda.

Mansur Escudero, head of the Federation of Islamic Religious Entities, called on clerics to formally condemn terrorism and pray for all terror victims. He went on to state, ''The terrorist acts of Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda organization ... which result in the death of civilians, such as women and children ... are totally prohibited and are the object of strong condemnation within Islam.''

Sounds good so far.

But let's examine what this man did not say, as well as the timing of his little media-sensation fatwa.

This fatwa was timed to coincide with the 1-year anniversary of the bombing in Madrid. Sure, several hundred people died, but this is not the first time that hundreds, nay, thousands of people have died at the hands of Muslims merely because they weren't Muslim.

Therefore, one must ask why was there no such fatwa issued in the aftermath of 9-11? And why has no fatwa about the "...death of civilians, such as women and children'' ever been issued regarding the thousands upon thousands of Jewish/Israeli victims of genocidal terror ever been issued?

I will tell you why. This is al-Takeyya/Taqiyya at its most devious and deceptive. And the key word here is 'civilians.'

In radical Islam (Islamism), any Jew living in Israel is not considered either 'innocent' or a 'civilian.' Nor were the people living and working in America on 9-11. Islamists consider the 'Great Satan -- America,' and the 'Little Satan -- Israel,' to be enemy combatants. And this includes every man, woman or child, even babes in arms, even sleeping or in school or playing in playgrounds. This includes any and all who are not Islamists and who oppose being forced to kneel down and pay homage to Allah or his followers. In particular, Christians (whom they call 'Crusaders'), and Jews.

This also includes those of us who refuse to allow the Islamists to insidiously inject their politico-religious dogma into our way of life. And this especially includes Israel, whom the Islamists view as a polluting force in their quest for 'Arab unity' and a Judenrein Middle East.

So the fatwa issued by this Muslim cleric living in Spain was meant to put the free and civilized world into yet another coma. He was hoping we would see this supposedly 'peaceful and tolerant' religious edict and sing the praises of Islam and remind each other how it is a 'peaceful' religion, even though the word 'Islam' also means 'to submit,' and our utter and complete submission is what they are working towards.

The crafter of this latest religious edict, so proudly trumpeted to the world, has achieved nothing more than a clumsy attempt to delude us into thinking that Islamism is really nice and honorable and loving and peaceful. It is also meant to deceive us into believing that even though such edicts were never issued -- and will never be issued -- regarding Americans or Israelis, these particular Muslims are mainstream moderates.

Camel cakes! We are now familiar with the ploy of lying, omissions and deceit as sanctioned by al-Takeyya/Taqiyya. And some of us are not in a humanist/liberal feel-good coma like lambs going to the slaughter. And we will continue to alert you to the deceptions used by the Islamists.

The lesson to be learned here is not to look for what is said, but what is deliberately not said. If anything, this fatwa, by its omissions and timing (or lack thereof) has simply reinforced the fact that the Islamists do not see Israel or Judeo-Christian America as 'innocent.' It has reaffirmed that they see us all as ripe for deceit and murder in the name of Allah.


http://www.isralert.com/archives/2005/03/deceit_thy_name.php

 

If you're going to quote from an article, be sure to be thorough and not exploit what was written. You left out important points that the author stressed on and manipulated your interpretation of al taqiyya to prove a point.


You left out:

First, the CONCEALMENT of one's beliefs does NOT necessitate an ABANDONMENT
of these beliefs. The distinction between "concealment" and "abandonment"
MUST be noted here.

Second, there are numerous exceptions to the above definition, and they
MUST be judged according to the situation that one is placed in. As such,
one should NOT make a narrow-minded generalization that encompasses all
situations, thereby failing to fully absorb the spirit of the definition.

Third, the word "beliefs" and/or "convictions" does NOT necessarily mean
"religious" beliefs and/or convictions.

With the above in mind, it becomes evident that a better, and more accurate
definition of "al-Taqiyya" is "diplomacy." The true spirit of "al-
Taqiyya" is better embodied in the single word "diplomacy" because it
encompasses a comprehensive spectrum of behaviors that serve to further the
vested interests of all parties involved.

---



So please, people, think. Use your common sense when coming to a conclusion and always remember to take ALL factors into account. At the end of the day, Islam does not condone violence. Islam does not condone cheating, lying, stealing, raping or killing.
One could also say al-taqiyya takes the many grey areas of life into account.
For example, telling us white lies are alright; even though like any religion, Islam tells people not to lie, if you MUST for a good reason (no evil intentions) then it is permissable.

I do not deny that religious scriptures are vague and that certain types of people can misinterpret them and twist them to suit their needs, however devious or kind they may be.

 

RE: Christians call him son, Muslims call him a prophet. It's all the same thing

Not true. Christians believe Jesus to BE God, and the crucifixion redemption from sin. Islam considers Jesus as simply another man.

And I'm sorry, I don't see Islam being about seeking knowledge. Try teaching that the world is not flat in Saudi Arabia. Write a book quoting in a dream sequence an actual ISLAMIC belief that Muhammad considered certain verses as being inspired by Satan.

 

The "Satanic Verses" concept comes from some words of the Prophet of Islam where he evidently slipped up and briefly allowed worship of a certain goddess.

But to answwer the question 'what does Islam seek'? - control. It must not be allowed to get control.

 

Why not

 

I'd guess that some of us wouldn't like to see our daughters put in bee suits, stoned to death if they walk down the street escorted by a male they aren't realted to, and denied all but a very few human rights. And, for myself, I wouldn't be real keen on living at the whim of a mullah willing to maim, torture, and/or murder me because some phrase might be construed as giving a thumb's up to it. But then again, I just might be crazy that way.

 

.......and its the same argument all over again! islam is evil, really evil ..has always been and will continue to be - its just crazy that there are so many evil people in this world who're turnin towards it and more so on a regular basis!

is there no sense left in this world anymore ..are the irongoth's, blackbills' and iconoclast's of this world losin their fight to rid this world of the evil they seeminly are followin - by turnin their backs on the peaceful other isms ??

i believe in communication, dialogue amongst peoples regardless of their backgrounds, race, culture, ethnicity, education, color, faith et al - but enough with the defense lines every muslim is now bein compelled to come out with!

to quote the holy book of islam - "to you is your religion, and to me is mine". if you truly wish to learn about it, come with an open heart and mind (basic rule if you wish to learn anythin, really). and if you wanna go through life googlin everythin out, thinkin you know it all and can debate this 1400 year old 'way of life' for over a billion plus (and growin), well good luck

 

Please rewrite this post, so it approaches coherence.

 

Icono, I can´t avail you from the ignorance which is spread about islam nor can I force you to think otherwise but I can and will ask you to atleast read about a certain subject before praising or denouncing it. The hate against this religion is based upon prejudging and as Annie Beslat said: "It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet

What humans right are they denied because I would like to claim that their rights are great and even greater than that of the secular woman of today. They have a far greater economic and social right, their intergrity and honor is protected and never played with. She is under islamic law guaranteed the economic support of her husband and this while she may be working herself under the circumstances that it wont effect her duties as a mother. Some women are so indulged in their careers while they at the same time try to take care of the family and thus face burn out or extreme stress. The number of burnouts on young women here in Sweden as increased with a number of >350% the last 4 years!

Thus shes -in islam- entitled to what she earns(that belongs to HER and not her husband) and part of what her husband earns, this without even including the dowry which now adays reach numbers consisting of 5-6 digits. Her honor is protected under all times, thus the Quran orders a punishment against those who falsley accuse honoruble chaste women. She is to be treated with goodness and justice and her rights were formulated by the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) him self during his last sermon:

"O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right, then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers..."

The myth must be erased, according to a study made by an english university there were more(in procent) women working as teacher in muslim universities during the midevil times than there are western women today! The head principal of the first university which was found by muslims was a woman.

In early islamic history theyve been teachers, scholars, doctors but most important ; kept their womenhood without being symbolised with sex as they are in the secular world(the word "teenage girl" has almost become synomous with sex).

Weve always been commanded give them their rights, and early muslim history stands as a witness to this but you western people have degraded her from all rights until just recently, so how do you rationalize when you come here and denounce a system which brought many of these right while you were still keeping them as cattle and forcing them as gifts to others?

Where in the Quran does it say to stone women for walking near/with men? You see, Ive memorized it all and I'm having a difficulty finding it, perhaps you can help(do not quote "muslim" acitons but islamic legaslations)

Finally, Ide like to quote, once again, nobel prize winner and the famous fighter for women rights in the Western society George B. Shaw who said concerning the islamic political system:

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

 

If you need to believe that I haven't studied Islam, then that's fine by me.

Hmm, all of these women in Saudi Arabia must be bitching about nothing. I guess they don't need to drive or vote or have equal access to the judicial system or any of those other pesky rights. Further, I don't care about Sweden. I really don't.

Good to see brood-stock are fetching such high prices today.

Since I'm not living 1,000 years ago, I don't really care.

Pervert.

Since I'm not over a hundred years old, this doesn't apply to me. "Forcing them as gifts" Kind of like a dowery? You should really re-read your post for logical consistency.

I don't care what the Quran says. I only care how it guides action. If islam can't curb this practice in the last 1,000+ years, then it is testament to its worthlessness.

 

By saying that you dont even care what the Quran has to say as long as a few group of people does wrong in its name your acually saying that a teacher who says 'no' to a student and the student still does it -ignoring the teacher- the blame will fall on the teacher?? How do you reason?

 

Poor analogy. Come up with a better one.

 

iconoclast, like i said ..if your drive is islam-bashin and bein anti-semitic (yes, muslims are semitic too) ..analogies is not what you're really after!

it doesn't cease to amaze me how passionate westerners have become about gettin the saudi women the right to drive. are they no better "rights" left in this world to let the world of islam revolve around bloody drivin rights ?!

we dont have saudia arabia as the lone islamic country, there are plenty others where these rights and much more including votin rights exist. or how about havin had women in power (indonesia - most populous muslim nation in the world and pakistan - 2nd most after indonesia)

can you say the same for the seeminly most democratic country (and upholder of democracy) of this world ? nevermind the women, they don't even consider a non-white man worthy enough to take the top job. and we hear how seriously the americans take their freedom!

let me put somethin in perspective for you and other critics - how old was your country when women were granted the votin rights ? 150 ? 200 ? more ..? saudi arabia and indeed most of the mideastern world is on an average 50 year old, havin freed themselves from their western occupiers/invaders or after their resources were sucked dry! and one of their (european) problems (israel) that was dumped on the region - which the region is still tryin to deal with, half a century later

saudi arabia (since it's always focussed upon) introduced education in circa 1960 - men and women were given equal right to education. statistics of year 2000 states 58% of those graduated were women

oh and while at it, the religion of islam gives women the right to divorce (qula) their husbands which has been in place for over 1400 years. are women in your society FREE enough to FREE themselves from their abusive husbands etc ? if yes, since when ?!

 

Please rewrite this post, so it approaches coherence.

 

You quote saudi laws as if it were applicable to ALL muslims.
There is a difference.