how far would u go to keep family togather?

would u run from the law to keep ur family togather would u live off the land and build a shack in the woods if thats what u had to do??? i just might have to and the way i see it is as long as the kids are warm fed and clothed and happy it should be ok...do u agree....do u have stories of intresting things u have done to keep your family togather?

 

Well, if I did something terribly wrong I wouldn't want to run and risk the cops finding me and taking charging my husband too and then the kids would be parentless.

If I was not running from the law and just wanted to get away from the bullshit of everyday society...hell yeah, I'd build a shack

 

if this is something i decide to do it will because the law broke me not because i broke the law i have done nothing wrong nor do i plan on it

 

how long would you be away if you stayed & faced the problem? for life? cuz that's the sentance you're giving your kids - a life on the run.

 

Well, my family is my everything. With that in mind, I try to live my life in a manner in which I don't have to fear something like that ever happening to me.

The love that ties a family together is strong, and really, there is nothing that I wouldn't do for the sake of my family because I love them so much. If I were in a situation like you, I would be tempted to run, yet, what is that really teaching my children? And what if the law catches up to you, and you have to see your family torn away from you in an even harder way? And children crave stability. If you are constantly living a life on the run, it may take it's toll on them. Maybe not now, but later on in life.

I really feel for you, and it's a shame that you're going through this situation.

 

I would kill. A nice big massacre.

No, I think I would fight it legally as much as possible, but if I felt I was railroaded, I would resort to "any means necessary" (provided this is what my family wanted).

 

ok i think mabe o stated this all wrong...might wanna read my post under protest captioned is parole comunest then u might understand my problem

 

Ok, I just read your post. Honestly, this is what I would do: Get your kids and wife together, leave, go as far away from NY as you can. Find a way to create a different idenity for you, your wife and kids. The state is never going to leave you guys alone. When you do find a new life, stay far away from drugs. I know a little pot is nice but you just can't risk getting the police involved in your life EVER AGAIN. I'm sure there are places that can get you a couple of SS#'s for a price. You need to find a way to come up with some money ASAP. Maybe you could even go out of the US. I'm sorry that your going through this Big fat hugs to you, your wife and three kiddos.

If you do run, I would really suggest making life as normal as possible. Not living in the woods eating berries Living a life in a nice small town under assumed identies, get a nice job, send the kids to public school. You'll need to change the kids names too, but that really should be easy.

You have a world of info at your fingertips right now, use it to learn how to change your life. When you do change your life...never break the law.

Peace

 

Playin' nice sometimes don't work.


The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.

Burroughs, William S.

 

OK you are speaking of your family as in your wife and kids. ?

 

This is a bit off the topic . Most american "white anglos" have the worse record of staying together im speaking of family as in = cousins,brothers,ants,uncles etc. they tend to move so far from each other is hardly a family anymore. due to job placement or what ever. here the blacks, spanish speaking or even asians tend to stay more closely "like the same city or near by" only in few small rural areas do whites tend to keep familys more close to each other. but those are getting harder to find. in big citys this is rare.

 

Ruby Ridge: The Set-up

One of federal police agencies' favorite activities is spying on radical political organizations. They don't care for being hindered by such things as the Bill of Rights; the FBI has been censured by Congress several times for illegal investigations.

In the late 1980s, the FBI and BATF wanted to infiltrate white supremacist groups. In 1989, the BATF sent informant Kenneth Fadeley to pose as a gun dealer to spy on groups such as the Aryan Nations in Idaho.

The BATF targeted white separatist Randy Weaver to be one of their moles. Fadeley claims that Weaver approached him with the offer to sell sawed-off shotguns in October 1989. Weaver claims he was entrapped, and in fact he was acquitted of weapons charges when tried in court.

As reported by James Bovard in the Jan. 10, 1995, Wall Street Journal, the BATF set up a sting in order to blackmail Weaver into doing their bidding: "an undercover agent of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms approached Mr. Weaver and pressured the mountain man to sell him sawed-off shotguns. Mr. Weaver at first refused, but the agent was persistent and Mr. Weaver eventually sold him two shotguns -- thereby violating federal firearms law."

Weaver refused to cooperate with federal agents. To justify a militaristic retaliation, BATF agents lied to the U.S. attorney's office. BATF agents claimed that Weaver had a criminal record and that he was a suspect in several bank robberies. Both charges were fabrications, even according to BATF Director John Magaw, who admitted the accusations were "inexcusable" in testimony before Congress.

The U.S. attorney's office indicted Weaver on weapons charges in May 1990. Weaver was arraigned in January 1991. After missing his February 1991 court date, Weaver was indicted in March 1991 on charges of refusing to appear in court.

 

The FBI Siege

When federal agents set up Randy Weaver on minor weapons violations, Weaver refused to show up in court for the charge, instead holing up with his wife and four children in his mountain cabin on Ruby Ridge, forty miles south of the Canadian border.

A Justice Department attorney got an arrest warrant for Weaver, despite knowing that a court official notified Weaver of an incorrect court date. (Weaver wasn't going to show up anyway.)

For the charge of refusing to appear in court for a minor weapons violation, the government conducted a military siege of Ruby Ridge worthy of a small war. As reported by James Bovard in the Jan. 10, 1995, Wall Street Journal, after Weaver's February 1991 missed court appearance,

Federal agents then launched an elaborate 18-month surveillance of Mr. Weaver's cabin and land.

David Niven, a defense lawyer involved in the subsequent court case, noted later: "The U.S. marshals called in military aerial reconnaissance and had photos studied by the Defense Mapping Agency. ... They had psychological profiles performed and installed $130,000 worth of solar-powered long-range spy cameras. They intercepted the Weavers' mail. They even knew the menstrual cycle of Weaver's teenage daughter, and planned an arrest scenario around it."

​

On August 21, 1992, the siege began in earnest. Six U.S. marshals, armed and camouflaged, went onto Weaver's property to conduct undercover surveillance. When Weaver's dogs started barking, they shot one of them.

Weaver's 25-year-old friend Kevin Harris and 14-year-old son Sammy and saw the dog die. Sammy Weaver fired his gun towards the agents as his dad yelled for him to come back to the cabin. "I'm coming, Dad," were Sammy Weaver's last words before he was shot in the back and killed by a U.S. marshal.

Kevin Harris, witnessing the agents' killing of the dog and child, fired at the agents in self-defense, killing one of them.

After the initial shootout, the Weavers and Harris retreated into their cabin, and a small army surrounded the area. Says Bovard: "the commander of the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team was called in, and ordered federal agents to shoot any armed adult outside the Weaver cabin, regardless of whether that person was doing anything to threaten or menace federal agents. (Thanks to the surveillance, federal officials knew that the Weavers always carried guns when outside their cabin.)"

Against a handful of rural Idahoans with shotguns, the U.S. arrayed four hundred federal agents with automatic weapons, sniper rifles and night vision scopes.

On August 22, 1992, Randy Weaver went to see his son's body in the shack where it lay. He was shot and wounded from behind by FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi. As Weaver struggled back to his house, Horiuchi assassinated his wife Vicki as she stood in the doorway, holding their 10-month-old baby.

Although the feds later claimed Vicki Weaver's killing was an accident, the New York Times reported in 1993 that an internal FBI report justified the killing by saying she put herself in danger. Horiuchi testified in court that he was an accurate shot at 200 yards.

Everything about the federal government's actions in this case is sickening, but possibly the worst was their taunting of the Weaver family after Vicki Weaver's murder: "Good morning, Mrs. Weaver. We had pancakes for breakfast. What did you have?" That was one of the FBI's tactics revealed in court records, reported by Jerry Seper in the Washington Times in September 1993.

After the initial shootout, the only shots fired were by federal agents. Eleven days after the shootout Randy Weaver surrendered

 

The Trial of Randy Weaver

In July 1993, a jury acquitted Randy Weaver of weapons and murder charges resulting from his set-up and the subsequent siege of his mountain cabin home by federal agents. Weaver's friend, Kevin Harris, was also found innocent.

Harris, witnessing the agents' killing of Randy Weaver's dog and son during the siege, fired at the agents in self-defense. Harris killed one of the agents. At the trial, the prosecution claimed Harris fired first; the defense produced evidence that the agent had fired seven shots before he was shot himself.

The federal government argued that sniper FBI Lon Horiuchi accidentally killed Weaver's wife Vicki. At the trial, however, Horiuchi testified that he was an accurate shot at 200 yards.

Everything about the federal government's actions in this case is sickening, but possibly the worst was their taunting of the Weaver family after Vicki Weaver's murder: "Good morning, Mrs. Weaver. We had pancakes for breakfast. What did you have?" That was one of the FBI's tactics revealed in court records, reported by Jerry Seper in the Washington Times in September 1993.

A jury found Weaver innocent of all serious charges, convicting him only on the original weapons charge. The jury also found Harris innocent, ruling his shooting of the marshal to be self-defense.

 

The Wall Street Journal, June 30, 1995, p. A14.



Ruby Ridge: The Justice Report

By James Bovard

The 1992 confrontation between federal agents and the Randy Weaver family in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, has become one of the most controversial and widely discussed examples of the abuse of federal power. The Justice Department completed a 542-page investigation on the case last year but has not yet made the report public. However, the report was acquired by Legal Times newspaper, which this week placed the text on the Internet. The report reveals that federal officials may have acted worse than even some of their harshest critics imagined.

This case began after Randy Weaver was entrapped, as an Idaho jury concluded, by an undercover Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms agent to sell him sawed-off shotguns.

While federal officials have claimed that the violent confrontation between the Weavers and the government began when the Weavers ambushed federal marshals, the report tells a very different story. A team of six U.S. marshals, split into two groups, trespassed onto Mr. Weaver's land on Aug. 21, 1992. One of the marshals threw rocks at the Weaver's cabin to see how much noise was required to agitate the Weaver's dogs. A few minutes later, Randy Weaver, Kevin Harris, and 13-year-old Sammy Weaver came out of the cabin and began following their dogs. Three U.S. marshals were soon tearing through the woods.

At one point, U.S. Marshal Larry Cooper "told the others that it was ['expletive deleted'] for them to continue running and that he did not want to 'run down the trail and get shot in the back.' He urged them to take up defensive positions. The others agreed.... William Degan ... took a position behind a stump...."

As Sammy Weaver and Kevin Harris came upon the marshals, gunfire erupted. Sammy was shot in the back and killed while running away from the scene (probably by Marshal Cooper, according to the report), and Marshal Degan was killed by Mr. Harris. The jury concluded that Mr. Harris's action was legitimate self-defense; the Justice report concluded it was impossible to know who shot first.

Several places in the report deal with the possibility of a government coverup. After the firefight between the marshals and the Weavers and Mr. Harris, the surviving marshals were taken away to rest and recuperate. The report observed, "We question the wisdom of keeping the marshals together at the condominium for several hours, while awaiting interviews with the FBI. Isolating them in that manner created the appearance and generated allegations that they were fabricating stories and colluding to cover up the true circumstances of the shootings."

After the death of the U.S. marshal, the FBI was called in. A source of continuing fierce debate across America is: Did the FBI set out to apprehend and arrest Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris -- or simply to kill them? Unfortunately, the evidence from the Justice Department report is damning in the extreme on this count.

The report noted, "We have been told by observers on the scene that law enforcement personnel made statements that the matter would be handled quickly and that the situation would be 'taken down hard and fast.' " The FBI issued Rules of Engagement that declared that its snipers "can and should" use deadly force against armed males outside the cabin.

The report noted that a member of an FBI SWAT team from Denver "remembered the Rules of Engagement as 'if you see 'em, shoot 'em.' " The task force report noted, "since those Rules which contained 'should' remained in force at the crisis scene for days after the August 22 shooting, it is inconceivable to us that FBI Headquarters remained ignorant of the exact wording of the Rules of Engagement during that entire period."

The report concluded that the FBI Rules of Engagement at Ruby Ridge flagrantly violated the U.S. Constitution: "The Constitution allows no person to become 'fair game' for deadly force without law enforcement evaluating the threat that person poses, even when, as occurred here, the evaluation must be made in a split second." The report portrays the rules of engagement as practically a license to kill: "The Constitution places the decision on whether to use deadly force on the individual agent; the Rules attempted to usurp this responsibility."

FBI headquarters rejected an initial operation plan because there was no provision to even attempt to negotiate the surrender of the suspects. The plan was revised to include a negotiation provision -- but subsequent FBI action made that provision a nullity. FBI snipers took their positions around the Weaver cabin a few minutes after 5 p.m. on Aug. 22. Within an hour, every adult in the cabin was either dead or severely wounded -- even though they had not fired a shot at any FBI agent.

Randy Weaver, Mr. Harris, and 16-year-old Sara Weaver stepped out of the cabin a few minutes before 6 p.m. to go to the shed where Sammy's body lay. FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi shot Randy Weaver in the back. As Randy Weaver, Mr. Harris, and Sara Weaver struggled to get back into the cabin, Vicki Weaver stood in the cabin doorway holding a baby. Agent Horiuchi fired again; his bullet passed through a window in the door, hit Vicki Weaver in the head, killing her instantly, and then hit Mr. Harris in the chest.

At the subsequent trial, the government claimed that Messrs. Weaver and Harris were shot because they had threatened to shoot at a helicopter containing FBI officials. Because of insufficient evidence, the federal judge threw out the charge that Messrs. Weaver and Harris threatened the helicopter. The Justice report noted, "The SIOC [Strategic Information and Operations Center at FBI headquarters] Log indicates that shots were fired during the events of August 22.... We have found no evidence during this inquiry that shots fired at any helicopter during the Ruby Ridge crisis. The erroneous entry was never corrected." (The Idaho jury found Messrs. Weaver and Harris innocent on almost all charges.)

The Justice Department task force expressed grave doubts about the wisdom of the FBI strategy: "From information received at the Marshals Service, FBI management had reason to believe that the Weaver/Harris group would respond to a helicopter in the vicinity of the cabin by coming outside with firearms. Notwithstanding this knowledge, they placed sniper/observers on the adjacent mountainside with instructions that they could and should shoot armed members of the group, if they came out of the cabin. Their use of the helicopter near the cabin invited an accusation that the helicopter was intentionally used to draw the Weaver group out of the cabin."

The task force was extremely critical of Agent Horiuchi's second shot: "Since the exchange of gunfire [the previous day], no one at the cabin had fired a shot. Indeed, they had not even returned fire in response to Horiuchi's first shot. Furthermore, at the time of the second shot, Harris and others outside the cabin were retreating, not attacking. They were not retreating to an area where they would present a danger to the public at large...."

Regarding Agent Horiuchi's killing of Vicki Weaver, the task force concluded, "y fixing his cross hairs on the door when he believed someone was behind it, he placed the children and Vicki Weaver at risk, in violation of even the special Rules of Engagement.... In our opinion he needlessly and unjustifiably endangered the persons whom he thought might be behind the door." The Justice Department task force was especially appalled that the adults were gunned down before receiving any warning or demand to surrender: "While the operational plan included a provision for a surrender demand, that demand was not made until after the shootings.... The lack of a planned 'call out' as the sniper/observers deployed is significant because the Weavers were known to leave the cabin armed when vehicles or airplanes approached. The absence of such a plan subjected the Government to charges that it was setting Weaver up for attack

 

This page is dedicated to exposing the unbelievable atrocities committed near Waco by government agencies as they raided, laid siege to, and ultimately massacred the Branch Davidians. May God grant that those who perpetrated this holocaust, and those who have covered it up, may be brought to justice, either by earthly tribunal, or by the Great Arbitrator Himself. http://www.jeffhead.com/liberty/waco_mas.htm

 

TABLE OF CONTENTS



INTRODUCTION

1. The Public Must Know the Truth
2. Justice Must Be Done
3. Past Wacos: Government's "Historic Interest in Breaking Up Armed Groups"
4. BATF and FBI Persecution of Randy Weaver
5. Government Reliance on "Private Spies" and "Cult Busters"
6. The History of the Branch Davidians
7. Non-Weapons-Related Allegations Against David Koresh

BATF-TREASURY DEPARTMENT VIOLATIONS OF RIGHTS, EXCESSIVE FORCE AND COVERUP: THE FEBRUARY 28, 1993 RAID ON THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS

1. BATF Ignored Branch Davidians' Legal Gun Business
2. BATF Found No Evidence Weapons Were Purchased Illegally
3. "Probable Cause" Based on Biased Information About Intent
4. "Probable Cause" Based on Religious and Political Beliefs
5. Other Irregularities in the February 25, 1993 Affidavit
6. BATF Ignored Branch Davidian Attempts to Cooperate
7. Questionable Grounds for a Paramilitary Raid
8. Government Multi-Task Force Makes for "Partners in Crime"
9. Dubious Drug Allegations to Obtain Helicopters for Free
10. Chronology of the February 28, 1993 BATF Raid
11. BATF Used Excessive Force to Serve Warrant
12. Allegations BATF Agents Shot First
13. Allegations Agents Shot Indiscriminately and from Helicopters
14. Allegations Friendly Fire Injured or Killed Some Agents
15. BATF Intimidation of the Press
16. BATF Coverup
17. Treasury Department Coverup
18. Committee for Waco Justice Conclusions

FBI-JUSTICE DEPARTMENT VIOLATIONS OF RIGHTS, EXCESSIVE FORCE AND COVERUP: THE 51 DAY SIEGE AND APRIL 19, 1993 ASSAULT ON THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS

1. FBI Control of the Press and Media
2. Possible Illegal Use of Tanks
3. FBI Impatient with Conciliatory Measures
4. FBI Relied on Experts and Cult Busters Urging Tactical Pressure
5. FBI Pressure Tactics Replaced Negotiations
6. FBI Destroyed Crime Scene Despite Complaints
7. FBI Plan to Gas, Disassemble Mount Carmel
8. FBI Refused to Believe Final Koresh Promise to Surrender
9. FBI Misled Janet Reno on Need for and Dangers of Assault
10. Questions About President Clinton's Hostility Toward the Branch Davidians
11. Chronology of the April 19, 1993 Gassing, Demolition and Fire
12. Fatal Decision to Escalate to Demolition
13. Suspicious Activity by FBI Agents
14. Lack of Fire Precautions
15. Branch Davidian Statements that Demolition Trapped People
16. Branch Davidian Statements that Demolition Started the Fire
17. FBI Allegations that Branch Davidians Started the Fire
18. FBI and BATF Crime Scene Coverup
19. "Independent" Fire Investigator Coverup
20. Justice Department Coverup
21. Committee for Waco Justice Conclusions

FEDERAL PROSECUTION OF THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS

1. The Charges
2. Pre-Trial Motions and Jury Selection
3. The Prosecution Case
4. The Defense Case
5. Civil Rights and Wrongful Death Law Suits

SOCIAL, ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL UPHEAVALS AND THE YEAR 2000

1. Millennialists and Survivalists
2. Drug-Prohibition-Related Violence
3. Gun-Prohibition-Related Violence
4. Economic Unrest and Tax Rebellion
5. Secessionists and Separatists

COMMITTEE FOR WACO JUSTICE RECOMMENDATIONS - RESPECT THE BILL OF RIGHTS

1. Protect Right to Freedom of Religion, Speech, Press, etc.
2. Protect Right to Keep and Bear Arms
3. Protect Right to Refuse Quartering of Soldiers
4. Protect Right to be Secure Against Unreasonable Searches, etc.
5. Protect Right to Indictment by Grand Jury, Trial by Jury, etc.
6. Protect Right to a Speedy Public Trial, Impartial Jury, etc.
7. Protect Right to Trial By Jury In Civil Suits
8. Protect Freedom from Excessive Bail, Excessive Fines, etc.
9. Protect Rights Retained by the People
10. Protect Powers Reserved to the States or the People

CONCLUSION

DIAGRAMS AND PHOTOGRAPHS (Unfortuneatly, not included in this file)

1. Treasury Department and BATF Chains of Command
2. Diagram and Drawing of Mount Carmel Center
3. White House, Justice Department and FBI Chains of Command
4. April 19th Diagram of Tank Damage to Mount Carmel
5. April 19th Infrared Photo of 11:59:16 of
6. Tank Rammings and Collapsed Gymnasium
7. April 19th Infrared Photo of 12:10:40 Fires

 

u know the thought of a ruby ridge type inicodent had crossed my mind and hay im only like 50 miles from canada but things are starting to look up for me little by little and hophally it wont come to that but if it does may my friends and family pray for me and what god intends to happen will im slowly rocking the boat hopeing not to flip it over...but i have decided that family should come first before all things espically if u are in the right...they would have fun with me i dont own a gun ....mabe a potato peelier thats about the extent of my weapons...my best weapon is my mind i will not have a stand off with anyone but if i go to jail my children will atleast know i gave it my best to keep our family togather and will grow up to hate the systom and mabe try n change it but i really thank u all for the help in makeing up my mind on the difference between right and wrong but i do belive things will work out in the end and if they dont i will be prepared

 

See Michael real hippies do make a big stink about ruby ridge and waco most of the people here "im not saying all" are either to dam ignorant or too young . even a black person who after reading a few lines and figure out in the case of randy weaver was a racist he could read between the lines and see regardless if randy was a racist, a jew, or what ever and see the power the federal goverment can use against us. i give credit to randy son and friend to fire back "and killing one of those son of bitches" the problem is most americans dont have any balls and the few that does are sent to iraq to fight oil wars. Stay vigilant.

 

and our schools system well never mention Waco or Ruby ridge they want to keep them ignorant and dumb. watch MTV and play CRAP i meant Rap.