Angry Soldiers Mom Camps At Crawford-

Right...
A Defined Target?
It's so interesting that a defined target, in this case, doesn't wear a uniform and are all dressed like the civilian population..same in Nam..in most of the underground resistance.
I cannot imagine looking out for car and suicide bombers, snipers, and countrymen dedicated to killing and destroying the white barbarian..and have to be "on alert" 24/7 not to be killed, maimed or injured by those "defined targets."

Defined targets in Hiroshima, Dresden, Berlin, Nagasaki, Nam, Afghabistan, Somalia, Northern Ireland, The British Train Authority..and Logan International Airport in Boston?

Interesting..
Peace
LionHeart

 

I am not sure what you are driving at, or what your point is.. i am a bit slow . Please explain [a little more] what you are trying to say.

 

I've re-read my post thank you.....and the point remains...he doesn't have a choice who or not to shoot....willingness doesn't come into it...he gave up that choice when he signed the dotted line put on the uniform...

Again i ask you to share your thoughts on why I am turning a soldier into a maligned man...as you presume that you know my thoughts better than I do

 

'killing' is one part of the multi faceted role a person has in any army..
Your right about 'not having a choice' to a certain degree but your saying [forgive me for thinking for you ] That this person woke up one morning and thought 'I wish to kill people, how can i do that ? I KNOW LET ME JOIN THE ARMY this will fulfill my 'inherent desire to kill'...' I apologise for highlighing your phrase so much but this is the issue i have with what you are saying. No i do not believe he had any desire, just knew this was part of the job.. IF REQUIRED.. not some compulsion in him to go out killing people. you are maligning this persons character, because you are transposing a flagrant dislike for the military and the people that are part of the army...with no consideration for the individual morality he i would imagine had.

 

Yes he does. Soldiers cannot follow illegal orders. If you are ordered to shoot civilians or execute prisoners, you have an obligation not to do so.

 

An illegal order is not an order, is it? (I presume that any good soldier knows when their superior officer is breaking a law by trying to get their personnel to act on their own desires, as opposed to military protocol).

 

have to agree with IRONGOTH and OZ! on this one.... if someones gullible enough to join up with a travel the world attitude.... months of training to kill must give them an insight into exactly what they are there for... i wonder... would she still be camped there for the men that lost their lives at the hands of her son?

 

I don't get ya...is or is not the purpose of an army to establish peace? and if that peace breaks down then the job of an soldier is to reinstall that peace asap? and the most effective way for a soldier to establish peace is to eliminate those their superiors percieve as being the enemy as efficiently as possible?

You can dress it up as duty, reluctance or any other way you like....but a person who dedicates a part of their life to military is training has an inherent desire to kill....why else would they subject themselves to the training? to learn to be a better diplomat? Or do soldiers now enlist thinking that they won't be expected to be a part of ending life of another human?

I have a huge dislike for the military (british military that is, i have no experience of how other countries conduct their military affairs) and nothing but contempt for anyone who gives up their right to think as an individual and learn to kill........wether it's dressed up in a uniform or chopping up yer neighbour with an axe....the ability and want to kill is a digusting thing imo...individual morality ain't worth a crock of shit, not if you sign it over to others

 

having thought about this further..this argument is a double edged sword... the desire in all of us to be protected in the event of an outbreak of war...and the reality that we rampage through the earth starting and joining in the wars of others for political and economic gain.... again i still think that war is inherently evil and although i feel sad at the loss of any life... that is a soldiers lot....its what hes there for...

 

exactly....now we have mothers fucking whinging about the fact that their son's (and daughters)...made a decision, and made the wrong one.

 

you put it so much better than i do OZ!.....

 

Excuse me again,
I feel you guys are on a "tread mill"...simply--in the U.S. we do have a choice to enter the miltary or not. If Cindy S. could have helped her son exercise his right to "abstain from war and killing" she would not be mourning his death. That's it. I hope that she is protesting "War".

Here are a few ideals and beliefs anyone could take in this country to avoid "killing, arbitrary or defined, genocide, preemptive aggression, and so forth"

Pacifism is opposition to war. Pacifism covers a spectrum of views ranging from a preference to use non-military means for resolving disputes through to absolute opposition to the use of violence, or even force, in any circumstance.
Pacifism may be based on principle or pragmatism. Principled pacifism is based on beliefs that either war, deliberate lethal force, violence or any force or coercion is morally wrong. Pragmatic pacifism does not hold to such an absolute principle but considers there to be better ways of resolving a dispute than war or considers the benefits of a war to be outweighed by the costs.

Conscientious Objection
A conscientious objector (CO) is a person who believes that it is wrong to kill another human being in war. The military defines conscientious objection as a "firm, fixed and sincere objection to war in any form or the bearing of arms" because of deeply-held moral, ethical, or religious beliefs. A lot of people in the military believe it's too late to be a CO now that they have enlisted, but the fact is many people realize they are opposed to participation in war after joining the military, and they are discharged as COs.
What do you think about war? Do you think it is morally wrong? Why? Are there any situations in which you would be willing to fight in a war? These are questions you will have to answer when applying for conscientious objector status.
Applying for CO status can be a long and difficult process. To get a discharge or reassignment as a conscientious objector, you must submit a written application to your commanding officer. In this application you must describe
the nature of your beliefs about participation in war;
how your beliefs changed or developed since you entered the military;
when and why you felt you could no longer continue serving in the military because of your beliefs; and
how your daily lifestyle has changed as a result of your beliefs.
further information required in the application.
After handing in your application, you will have three interviews: with a psychiatrist, a military chaplain, and an investigating officer. At the investigating officer's hearing you have a right to be represented by counsel--this can be a lawyer or a counselor. You may also bring witnesses--friends, family, a clergy member, or fellow military service members who can speak in support of you and your claim. The investigating officer will recommend to your commanding officer whether or not you should receive conscientious objector status.

Peace
LionHeart

 

His mother did not have issue with her sons actions [joining the army or war] till he turned up dead.. now 'we have a fucking mother whinging' .. Her husband has shown the more respectful way to mourn his sons death.

 

Well i have to wonder why you have posted your thoughts within this thread if you don't care who killed him and why.

You don't have to cry about this person , again i wonder why you are commenting on this.. when your 'gripe' is with killing and death . I don't like killing and death, this is a reality of war though unfortunatly.

I don't think he would be getting any trial .. should he ?. 'opposing army' hardly a army .. hardly abiding by any international laws either and we don't know the true motive behind this soldiers killing.... i would imagine it was not for 'peace' though [fucking imperialist infidels would i think be the reasoning].

This is one of the reasons i ask 'whos 'side' are you on.. it was said in a mildly flippant way but it was [i thought] a easier way to ask.. I can't really fathom it out.. The only thing i can think of is that you did not wish troops to overthrough saddam because there was NO WMD .. No connection with OBL and that invading a country has created a situation of 'our' own making.. Therby the soldiers and the 'higher ups' including GWB and TB have created this situation for themselves... killing people in the process.. this way off the the subject of this thread i would imagine.

I say 'side' [i did not wish to make this into something as frivolous as a football match] as there are multiple positions you could hold .. The 'terrorists' could in your eyes be 'freedom fighters' .. The 'insurgents' could be 'freedom fighters' there are foreign fighters etc etc oh and of course the coalition troops working for/with those iraqis that want democracy. I am on the later groups 'side' ..

So if a 'war' is fought [you agree with] occures then there is a legitimate reason to use force etc and it becomes a 'just war'.. Well i think this is a 'just war'..

Thanks for not saying 'war monger'.. No i am not a 'arm chair hero' i am just talking to another human being about a situation in this crazy world in wich we live in... Why do you think because i show support, that means i have some duty to go fight.. What kind of logic is that.
Are you a 'bleeding heart liberal' wishing to throw flowers at those perpetrators of harm ?.

 

--When the Nazi's were bombing the hell out of your beloved England; it was those bloodthirsty Americans who came to your rescue-I don't think you would have called any body saving your ass a killer-more like saying thank you-Some wars are just hard to avoid-like fights-some wars are fought for defensive reasons-the war in Iraq is not on that list- but WW2 was--So- before you badmouth any American soldiers; you may want to look at pictures of Londan in the 40s-then say thanks to the next American GI you see-then just hope noone talks crap like that about you to your mom when your dead-remember-what goes around-comes around-the law of Karma-is alive and well-

 

--I know it's hard to believe; but it is fairly easy for a hard- ass recruiter to talk an 18 year old kid into joining up-they are salemen and good at it-Just as Bush is a salesman; selling the whole idea of WMDs in Iraq to the American public and to Congress-So; if it possible to sell 70% of this country on that idea-how hard is it to sell the same idea to an 18 year old-not hard-he may have been told he would never leave the U.S.-many people sign up then find out they were lied too-always has been-and yea-lots of people do join the Navy to "See the world"--and ended up in Nam-So-who do we blame for his death-If General Motors sells you a car with bad brakes and you drive it over a cliff; is it your fault for being a lousy driver or even driving in the first place-of course not-The saleman at the dealership and GM-are too blame-if they knew all along the brakes would fail-well -Bush lied -and knew all along that there was no good reason to go to war-therein lies the blame-as far as his mom and the dead enemy-she probably has enough respect for life and hatred for war; that she would mourn the loss of any life as we all should-

 

Everybody I hung out with in the 60s was anti-war and wanted the Viet Nam mess over-as did most of the rest of the country-but; being against war and killing does not mean you have to roll over and play dead or cave in when your backed into a corner-Bottom line-I would do whatever it takes to defend me and mine-if someone is killed in the process-I really want it to be the other guy-and yes-I would feel bad about it-but; self-defense is becoming mandatory in our ever increasing violent world-it's a shame-such a beautiful place this world is-aggressive/angry walking time-bombs should live by themselves on a far away island--then take it all out on each other-

 

Lets hope you never have to make that decision robspace2.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience. This is all a part of the "learning"...are we learning?
I'm in Cottonwood, Arizona and the only thing I see as threatening--is the news, the views, and the sheer hoplessness of activism, the absence of positive metamorphosis, the apathy of higher consciousness and a negative and violent future for all the children people are deciding to bring upon this violent planet--to endure the suffering and pain.
Open your "Hippie Heart" draw beauty, protection and Love in your life..perhaps you will never have to make that "life-deciding" decision.
I know I won't...I know!!
And please don't call me naive..I would never put my family in harms way or volunteer for a war.
You know the old saying.."what if they put on a war and no-one showed up?"
Peace
LionHeart