Don't The Americans Seem To You Sometimes Like

nul & nix. Det du'r ikke. No more danish.

 

It is my understanding that European cities(London most of all) is that there is massive segregation between different ethnicities. That different groups basically form their own little countries within European countries, particularly true of Muslims. "Little Italy" "china town" are not what they used to be. There are lots of chinese who live in China Town still though.

However, i think when you look at the grand picture, you can see that a melting pot did occur. It is probably more accurate to say that newly arrived immigrants usually 'huddle' together before being fully integrated into society. Look at all the european immigrants who are now indistinguishable between each other. We dont have a german state, a french state, an english state, an italian state, etc. You can find asians pretty much everywhere.

But, yes, it seems that in cities, there tends to be major segregation(self imposed).

I would say that English, American Sports, and our ideals have created a common culture.

 

sorry, I just wanted all the top spots

 

Well, lots of Arabs are persecuted in their home countries, for one reason or another (political dissidents and homosexuals from Iran, for example), or they want to escape from a country in war, such as Iraq or Palestina, to provide a safer future for their children. This is not a problem at our end - we can easily receive those who need refuge - but nobody leaves their country without a reason, and it's this reason that needs fixing. Some people of course consider it a problem for xenophobic reasons, but that's a discussion I won't be part of...

peace,
-Pat

 

Lots of things can make you successful - that doesn't mean it's right. You also have to look at all the people who were alienated along the way (see below).

Well, from a multiculturalist/communitarian perspective, people should be allowed to keep their cultural traits when integrating into a new society. I don't see why that should bother anybody. As long as people agree on a certain set of fundamental values and institutions, perhaps a 'common good', there will be enough of a social connection to keep the society together (ie, rather than dissolving 'non-liberal'* cultures, these should be encouraged to 'liberalise'). By assimilating immigrants into the dominant culture you're just alienating people, as this implies that some cultures are worth less than others. What people need is recognition, as their cultural and social context is a fundamental part in creating their identity. It is when you deny people their true identity that you get segregation, as people then form their own little groups outside the rest of society (because they don't fit in). Allow everybody to participate in society on equal terms and they will have no need to 'live out' their identity somewhere else. Now, this is all very brief and poorly formulated, but it'll have to do for now. If anybody wants to look into it more I can recommend Will Kymlicka's "Multicultural Citizenship" and Charles Taylor's "The Politics of Recognition" as good introductions...

* = please note that whenever I say 'liberal', I don't mean it as opposite to conservative, but simply the basic 'uber-ideology' that every democracy on earth is based upon.

peace,
-Pat

 

You talk about integration, but how can societies become integrated without there being a sacrificing of SOMETHING?

I agree that people need to adhere to a certain set of principles, but that is what i'm talking about. I dont care if a Chinese person continues to eat peking duck instead of hamburgers or if they dont throw on a yankees hat, i'm talking about them believing in freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc. These are WESTERN ideals that we are trying to make universal ideals. For them to believe in these ideals is in essence "them" melting into "us." We cant have it anyother way. If immigrants dont believe in Western ideals then we will eventually lose our freedoms that we've toiled long and hard to secure..

 

Well, first of all, I don't agree with you that these ideals are "Western". Are Buddhists of western origin, for example? They believe in the same ideals, to a much higher degree even. What I was talking about was things like allowing religious dress in public and at work, having newspapers in major immigrant languages, encouraging minority representation in politics etc. Some of these are already implemented in some states of the US. Not only immigrants should be made to make sacrifices, also those of the dominant culture need to open up to other ways of life and accept the fact that their own views may not always be the 'right' ones. We all have a lot to learn from other cultures when it comes to respecting our surroundings. There's no reason why these different ways should have to get in each other's way. Those ideals that you mentioned are exactly those that I meant should be the foundation of every society. It's all the rest that should be up to every individual or group alone. The point of multiculturalism is to create understanding, which in turn discourages hatred, segregation and discrimination. Who do you think is the most prejudiced; the guy who has never met a muslim in his life, or the guy who sat next to a girl wearing a hijab every day at school?

Switzerland and Canada have practised multiculturalism for a long time, even if Canada has bits of structural assimilation as well. More recently, it is also used in Australia and Sweden. It's not a perfect system, obviously (there is no such thing), but I prefer it over any policy that tries to make people something they are not. That's just a good way to create resentment towards the general society.

peace,
-Pat

 

I know of no humanistic ideology that predates western ideals. If you do, by all means show me.

I believe everyone in the US is american. As such, any should have the ability to run for office. I dont think we need to encourge "iranian muslims" to form their own party, or say "mexican immigrants" to create their own representation. They are Americans, they are part of us and as such shouldnt be disconnected from the rest of society.

We do have a lot we could learn from other cultures; treating the environment better is one example. However, i dont think there is any give on our ideals. If they dont believe in those ideals, we must teach them to believe in them.

I dont see why a guy who hasn't met a muslim is automatically prejudiced.

Multiculturalism is NOT a completely different thing than a melting pot. MANY different ethnicities have added to American culture. They have also taken on other aspects of other peoples culture in doing so. It is a give and take.

 

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Hmm Hmm In the sight of a german the most countries are nationalists thats my opinion too, but I think most German have a uneasy relationship in national questions and flags after an especialy war. So don´t take this comment serously.
Peace from Cologne I Love this fucking city!!!

 

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113912

 

I can recognize Shadowplays good examples from the danish political debate - and let me say: I agree with Shadowplays views.
But allow me to use one of my fav aversions, Robert Kagans allegory: Europe is from Venus, America is from Mars.
I can't disagree with Megaras argument either. The perfect american is a person who believe in that cultural diversity can build one nation of perfect democracy. Beautiful thought, honestly.

Your idealism is good, Megara, but since you believe that all cultures contribute to democracy in America, you must also recognize that democracy is not an american invention. If all people strive for freedom, why don't they practice it before they see the shores of Ellis Island? Don't you think their mental idea of freedom somehow origins from the culture in which they were brought up?

In all tribal cultures, not only an idea of freedom exist - also an idea of democracy exist. Those kinda ideas are very fundamental in history (also long before Athens). Perhaps an important study for modern (american) anthropologists: "how is the modern american idea of freedom and democracy influenced by the culture of its immigrants?".

love and understanding,
noose.

 

i dont believe Democracy is an American invention. It was around long before America. If you ask me, i might just say that America proved democracy CAN work.

Imagine trying to run a country where every language in the world is an official language and where every cultures' holidays are made national holidays. The country couldn't function. It would get caught up trying respect everyone. Heck, who wants to listen to george bush rattle off "God Bless America" in 3000+ languages?

I believe that you can keep other cultures alive within a melting pot. A common culture, a common heritage gives us something in common. A country where there is nothing in common will only breed hatred, resentment and calls for separation.

 

oops... I was supposed to write "I can't DISagree with Megaras..." - I will edit now (so please reread)... and I'll probably return with a reply later, Megara. It's a good debate.

love and understanding...

 

okay... I'll write my reply now.
Maybe that's where the danger of idealism comes in, Megara. I don't doubt that your founding fathers were idealistic. It was a big effort for them to decide or administrate the ideological and political line of a nation established of many different kinds of settlers. All the settlers were fragmented, and it was a difficult decision how to gather the country.
They killed the natives and imported africans like if they were commodities... maybe that was one way to gather the cultures? People always feel like a unity, when they can step on someone else...?

Just a thought... but it seems odd to me that a nation that ought to represent the whole world is that much hated all over the world. Maybe 95% of the world population is wrong, but I don't think so... I think the political power in America somehow has strengthened itself towards the american people, that explain the tendencies moving towards a totalitarian direction. The corporation between political power, industry, media, and military, for which the people has no possible democratic control. If the american people were allowed, actually to gain true democratic control, maybe the current american model of society would face its crisis? (but maybe we would face the true, beautiful America, in accordance with the original interpretation of the constitution after such an open political crisis? - let's call this hypothetical collective recognition "the new american revolution".)

love and understanding,
noose.

there's something wrong, Megara. Don't you see that?...

 

To that I have never disagreed. I'm glad we're on the same page there. The problem in a 'melting pot society' is, however, that it's very hard for anyone who comes in from the outside to get into the political arena (etc) at all. How many Mexican immigrants do you have in positions as representatives of the American people on some level around the US? What about Arabs? Even considering their relatively small part of the population, they aren't many, are they? (Rhetorical questions meant as examples only. Please note that I'm not talking about the US specifically here.) No matter how hard an immigrant tries to adjust to the culture in his new home country, he will always be an immigrant. He doesn't live under the same conditions as the "average Joe", and he doesn't share the same needs, which makes it impossible for him to participate in society on equal terms. This is where the part about recognition comes in, see previous posts.

Again, I agree. As I wrote in my first post: cultures with non-liberal traits should be made liberal, not dissolved. I even repeated this view in my second post.

Not automatically, obviously, but considering the fact that Western media tend to show or talk about muslims only or mainly in relation to terrorist activity, it's not that far off. My point was that I think it's vital to the integration in any society that people have as regular contact with other cultures as possible.

EDIT: I'd like to point out again that when I speak of multiculturalism, I mean the political philosophy, not just cultural diversity. This is an ideal type, just like democracy, and should be seen as a theoretical departure point, not as an in reality fully functional practice. Just to avoid confusion...

Oh man, I'm actually boring myself with this. Feel free to ignore me and move on.

peace,
-Pat

 

Who ever said that every culture's holidays should be EVERYBODY'S holidays? There are many people, at least in this country, who suggest that instead of having these standard holidays we have now, we should have a certain number of days to take whenever we want to. I know lots of people who are frustrated that they always have to take Christmas off, for instance, when they'd rather be home at some other time of the year (this is not only for religious reasons btw). Flexible holidays, kinda like more vacation I guess, just that you HAVE TO take them eventually (the standard 5 weeks of vacation can be taken out in cash if you prefer). THAT would be the alternative, not that everybody would celebrate Ramadan or Yom Kippur as well!

peace,
-Pat

 

I'm not sure how it is in your country, but in the US, people are normally given 2 weeks off and they can take those days off whenever they want. On certain federal holidays, the businesses are closed and they dont count towards your 2 weeks(pretty sure).

Also, i believe that no business can fire someone because they take off for religious reasons. I'm not sure how that works with Ramadan since its like a month long(i believe).

The problem is, when most of the business is gone for say Christmas, they're not going to open up the business so the few jews/muslims who dont want to take that day off can come in and work. I think it would be nice, but i dont think it is really feasible.

 

Well i'm not exactly sure on the numbers, but Latinos are pretty well represented in the US government. Cubans, particularly, are overrepresented. The Latino population will continue to grow in significance in America too. But yes, every other population is probably not as well represented.

I think it has a lot to do with culture. Many cubans come here believing that if they get into political power that they can help change things back in Cuba for their family, so they are highly motivated to get into power. I dont think that is necessarily true of other people.

Ideally, i like to believe that if you go to America and become a citizen you're America. It is one thing, that arrogantly, i believe is unique about America. However, there are a lot of rednecks who spew BS about "how they're stealing our jobs, blah blah."

I agree that we need to learn more about other cultures. I do think it will help with understanding. However, when it comes to teaching multiculturalism, i believe we need to 'fully' teach about ourselves and our direct history before we move onto multiculturalism.

 

Well, not to spark a whole new debate, but things are not as simple as "America's founders killed the indians and imported slavery."

Well, i might disagree that 95% of the world hates America. They may dislike george bush a lot, but i dont think its near extreme. But, i still get what you're getting to.

If you view America in 1787 to 2005, then we have most definitely moved in the direction of totalitarianism. There is no denying that. We aren't as free as we once were(well, for whites). However, country's need to adapt with the times. If America was the same in 1787 as 2005, we would probably have been overrun by foreign powers. Thats not to say that things like the patriot act are necessary or at all good, but we have had to adjust to survive.

It is walking a very thin line, and it is a dangerous one. However, i think you have to walk the line to survive in this everchanging world. We just need to keep a watch on government even closer now than ever before.