"If it harms none do what you will"

This is very often quoted when people start talking about paganism.. but is it really a pagan thing? Sure, neo-pagans (spefically wiccans) have adopted it, but if you think about historic pagans (norse, druids, ancent egyptions, heck, even native americans), they hardly live with that idea in mind.

If you ask me, it's more like common sence - a lot of atheists (myself included, but then I class myself as a pagan too) follow this idea, simply because it makes sence - you have to get on with other people, and not hurt them, because (you hope) they'll do the same in return for you.

One thing that I have noticed is that it's very similar to the christian (???) idea of "do onto others as you would have them do onto you", but with a fundamental diffrence - that being that others might not specially want you doing to them what you want doing to yourself.

Another thing that you need to remember is that it's an impossable rule to follow... Regardless of what you do, people are going to get hurt... Someone buys you a pint down the pub, they're being nice and social, sharing their wealth, etc.... but in doing so, they're hurting you (specially damaging your liver - fair enough, if you drink in moderation, the damage is minimal, but it's still damage)..

And you know what, I think it's this aspect that makes it so appealing to me, the fact that when you face reality, there is never a simple soloution to a lot of problems, and the majority of time, it's more a case of choosing the path that has the least damage to other people/things... trying to find the balance.

Anyway, that's what I think, I don't know what the point of this thread was, other than to post for the sake of posting..

so, what do you think?

 

knew this witch in witchata kansas (there were lots of them there, its the like draws like thing) she had artifacts that had been in her family for hundreds of years, an unbriken line of worshipers of some godess, but her coven could be very vengfull, harming if they felt they were justified

 

<quote>One thing that I have noticed is that it's very similar to the christian (???) idea of "do onto others as you would have them do onto you", but with a fundamental diffrence - that being that others might not specially want you doing to them what you want doing to yourself.

that is not a christen thing, its nowhere in the bible, noone seems to know where it comes from, maybe philip, (some dude who wrote philips laws wayyyyy back)

 

I hate to burst your bubble, but it is in the bible, though I can not get direct chapter and verse, I can say without a doubt that it is there.

 

^nope won twenty bucks from mike on this, he had a searchable bible on disk, its not there

 

It took some searching, but look in Mathew, chapter 7, verse 12.

 

steffan,it is completely in the bible....
christians have lost it in their self righteousness, but it is in the bible...
and wolf, you look like you want to fucking kill me, cant say i dig it so well

 

hehe, sorry, I've been meaning to change my sig, but I just haven't gotten around to it. I'll do that now.

 

thats what mike said too, and got pissed when i said it wasnt, bet me twenty bucks, and stuck in the bibble disk, I did buy the pizza though

 

I just quoted the damned scripture and you still say we're wrong....

 

Mathew 7:12 (KJV) : "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

Looks christian to me, if you won 20 bucks, you should give it back

ANYWAY!!!!

Lets try and get back on topic

 

sound reversed to me, more like an eye for an eye kinda thing

 

then you are a nut.....why do you want to hear the words from such a wonderful peaceful man in a harmful way? doesnt make sense when you take into context the rest of what he said or did....
sheesh you are hardheaded steffan

 

Sorry mariecstasy, but looking at the phrase again:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

I tend to agree with steffan (btw, I doubt you'll find any support for 'jesus' in this forum )

 

Naturally. It's a basic law that exists in every spiritual practice, the act of not hurting others or yourself. Every religion has it worded differently but is exactly the same messege.

 

I'm sorry, but I disagree with this..... Life does not survive by living in harmony with everything else... life survives because becase of *death*.

The worm eats the dirt, the bird eats the worm, the fox eats the bird, etc... A long line of death, all of which allow the animals higher in the food chain survive... but even when they die, their body returns to the ground - to be eaten by the worms.... OK, I've over simplfied that, but that's the core of how it works.

Now sure, I'll agree that some animals have a symbiotic relationship, such as birds and bees that allow plants to reproduce via their flowers, but generally that's the exception rather than the rule, or rather the exception that PROVES the rule.

Life survives because of death, and if death doesn't hurt, I don't know what does... So, sorry... but there is not some mystical rule that dictates everything work togther in harmony..

 

lol....so you are saying that you would prefer someone to remove your eye...because that is the only way you can get an eye for an eye out of it....

wasnt looking for support, nor do i happen to be christian, i simply was stating the fact he was a peaceful man. if your dealings in whatever you believe don't allow you to state the man was truly peaceful then what can i say,. its not his fault there has been persecution because of his name.....but that is just my rant....
anyway, have fun.

 

I'm not saying that's what I want... I'm saying that that's how it looks.... 'do to someone else what they do you to', that works both ways, good and bad, if they give you flowers, give them flowers back... if they kill your sister, go kill their sister, etc..

My problem is that I have trouble with the whole jesus exsting thing.... I just don't think he did... the story of jesus is more like a colation of diffrent stories of the many people running around at the time claming to be the son of god, not to meantion a HUGE chunk of the Mithra mythology, and no doubt some stories added for good measure.

Now sure, the mythology of jesus, as stated in the bible, he is meant to be a peaceful man - "let he without sin cast the first stone", healing the sick and wounded, etc... but have you noticed that it's the same stories quoted over and over again... they seem to forget bits like the time he cursed a fig tree to death because it didn't have a fig to him to eat when he wanted one.... I mean come on.. sounds like a nut case to me.

You automaticly said to steffan, like, how can you say something so bad of someone so peaceful, but that's just not the case, is it? there appears to be a lot more to the man (the mythology of the man) that people tend to remember.

(oh, and lets not forget the gnostic gospals, the accounts of jesus that were suppressed by the early church).

not wanting to cause an argument or nowt, just explaining my view on the whole thing

 

much respect for your opinion

 

Yeah, oversimplified it a tad, Dan.

You're comparing the instinct of animals to survive with the human mind rationalizing it's way out of taking the life of another for whatever reason. It's not really comparing apples to oranges, but maybe comparing bing cherries to bartlett pears.

And no, humans do not survive by living in harmony with everything else. We kill, pollute, destroy, and for the most part don't care.

It's a nice idea though.