Choice..&..Suicide

During a discussion on determinism and choice that occam
had recently with a close friend.
The question was fielded as to what is the most ' important'
choice that one can make. It was resolved that the choice must
be one that resulted in action in the world.
Also the qualifier of 'cannot be undone' came to the fore.
[aside from the obvious that no act can be 'reversed']

Murder.
Suicide.

The occam had a really weird idea.
We have no choice in our 'comming to be'. [where , when, why]
And it is a generally accepted axiom, that we dont know the time
or place of our mortal end untill it is appon us.

But someone who commits suicide DOES.

They defy determinism in the most profound way a self aware being can.
By ending their mortal existance.
Occam offers such who knew exactly what they were doing.
Who consider all aspects of their position and those of loved ones.
Be it to cease when continuing a life is vastly inferior.
Or to sacrifice self for another
To be worthy of great respect as human beings.
For they make a choice most humans dread even thinking of.
To step willingly into the unknown..
To CHOOSE to do so.

Occam

PS..Please///
Many have chosen such.[suicide] For reasons that did not require such drastic action....
And so many grieve for them.
Many have committed suicide because they reasoned well.
And we still grieve for them.
And sometimes.
We call them hero's.

 

That's probably the first post in this forum that actually has to do with existentialism. I remember reading something by Nietzsche in which he said it's a shame that more people don't take their own life rather than dying old and frail in hospital beds.

 

When I start getting so old that I can't live life anymore, I plan to get a ride on a private plane, and get a big sack of heroin, shoot up on the plane, and have a friend push me out without a parachute. =D

That would be the best way to go, methinks.

 

I've seriously considered suicide, especially as I'm getting older with few prospects of having much to look forward to. I've already found my own happiness within myself; it's the fucked up human species (most of it anyway) that gets on my nerves more than anything else.

Suicide is simply the ultimate form of diving into my own navel and telling the rest of the world to go fuck off. I really don't think that the world deserves any better from me; it should be thankful that I don't see any point in getting an AK-47 and shooting up a few people first(!)

And forget the guilt trips, religion, and all that bullshit. Telling people that suicide is wrong is the ultimate man-made control trip, nothing more.

 

Shevek

Agree.. In fact an inordinate amount of effort is made to stop people
offing themselves.
It was specifically plugged into the bible because the 'meek' were
taking a shortcut to heaven.
Can't have that..oh no.. who would the church RULE
if the faithfull got too faithfull?
And decided to go to heaven on a fast track?

People fear those that CHOOSE when their life ends.
They say they feel sad for them. A social face.
But under that is FEAR.

Those people have willingly gone where most FEAR to go.
The unknown.
An act worthy of respect.. Even if made [often] for all the wrong reasons.

Occam

 

CS.

Occam would like to hear other topics that you consider of
existential nature.
We had a bit of a dead end with determinism.
But that is nothing.

Please.
Start a thread on a topic that interest you.

Occam

 

" Quote:
Originally Posted by shevek
And forget the guilt trips, religion, and all that bullshit. Telling people that suicide is wrong is the ultimate man-made control trip, nothing more.

Shevek

Agree.. "

pathetic.

 

pathetic .... [was your response]?

Jeez, it'd make for healthy conversation to at least say why it's pathetic. Or does it just clash with your beliefs, making it "pathetic"?

 

Hiky

Agree. Appears to be a purely emotive/ego response [pathetic]

Occam

 

Wouldn't it suck if everyone who commits suicide gets immediately reincarnated as something shitty like a wildebeast or a worm or plankton or a maggot?

You know...like God's way of saying, "Oh you thought that was bad?"

 

This sounds like an update of the antique Church attitudes and control trips into New Age language. (Notice the use of 'God' and some presumptions about God's supposed attitudes.) A lot of positive thinking bullshit (and blaming those who don't think positively) to cover up our denial over our own fear of death!

I don't know if you really mean this, of if it's just something you threw out. I respect your ideas, but I don't necessarily agree with them. Anyway, I do expect you to respect MY ideas, but you're also welcome to disagree with me.

Thanks HZ. You usually do a pretty good job of challenging people to think about their statements instead of just accepting things blindly.

Good observation Occam. In fact, I have a Christian friend who seriously contemplated suicide as a way of getting out of hell (i.e., the world) and into heaven. After all, she believes that God can understand and forgive...

No one would blame you if you chose to get out of a shitty job or a dysfunctional relationship, even if you didn't have something else lined up. In fact it would take a lot of courage to do so.

Suicide may be no different, it may in fact be an act of courage to get out of a bad situation that has no other REALISTIC solutions. And if you believe in reincarnation, suicide may be a "necessary experience", it may even be regarded as an act of cosmic courage that could actually get you a better life the next time around.

Of course all this is food for thought not a definitive statement. However death happens to everybody so why be afraid of something that's going to happen anyway? As for the "afterlife" no one knows for sure, and those who claim to "know" come across as being the most full of hot air. Besides, if you can't seriously question YOUR OWN beliefs, why should I consider them to be at all credible when I have questioned EVERYTHING including MY beliefs -- and learned a lot in the process?

However, I will say this much to the positive thinking types: You can keep your positive thinking bullshit, I'm sick and tired of it! Why don't you try getting out of your little self-centered circle and extending a PRACTICAL helping hand instead of just offering worthless platitudes? Or would that take too much effort and deprive you of looking down your nose at others? For the record, I do extend a hand to others to the extent that I can, I know how much hell life can be and I won't make it even more hellish by going into denial about it! That takes a little courage too you know! (I think that this statement would qualify me as an Existentialist.)

 

It wasn't meant to be serious. I totally respect someone's decision to end their own life when it's justified, but in some situations it's totally selfish. Like when someone has kids or other people they love who are counting on them. I personally know a ten-year-old who found his own grandmother dead from an OD. That kid is pretty fucked up from it. That's just wrong.

 

yeah, but isn't it also selfish to tell someone they can't end their own life?

 

perhaps in some circumstances, but definitely not selfish of anyone who knows this ten-year-old.

 

Kilgore

And occam agrees.
To allow a situation where a child will find you if you end your life.
To carelessly allow such a trauma to happen to a child.
[as our society defines such]
Is an evil.

A human being , understands that such can happen. And plan for it not to.
To allow it is the mark of an emotional end to life.
Yes..To end ones life cannot reasonably be free of emotion.
No-one expects such.
But the REASON FOR ENDING IT.
Should be a rational one, not emotional.

The entire suicide question is a mater of personal choice.
Society DOES NOT OWN us.
Thus has no say in the mater of our inherent rights to personal choice.

Yet , human experience has revealed one thing.
It's REALLY A GOOD IDEA
To THINK before you ACT.

Occam

 

I very much agree with this sentiment. If I do end my own life, it will be because I'm totally frustrated with life and that there is nothing left to learn from it except more frustration, and moreover I have the sense that my time has come and that to prolong the frustration is itself a serious mistake. I would also do it in as bloodless a way as possible, and alone in my apartment. I should add that no one depends on me, I have no children (as I'm gay), and I already took care of my dad until after he passed away. I did not mourn his death though I loved him dearly, rather I was relieved that he didn't have to endure any more pain, and that is what I want for myself.

I have already set the time (I set it some weeks ago) and allowed for a particular event that will cause me to reconsider, and I have spent a lot of time in meditation. No one else is to know the details of the time I have planned or the event that would cause me to reconsider -- it is an intensely personal decision, and I alone have the right to judge my own actions. I do not even intend to communicate what I plan to anyone who knows me until the time comes, and in a way that will prevent interference. Even on Hippyland, no one will know of the time except by my absence after the fact, and I will probably choose to leave Hippyland anyway even if I do reconsider.

To expand on my earlier analogy, you should not leave a job or a relationship just because of sudden anger, but because it isn't working out which requires some thought into why it isn't working and whether or not something can be salvaged. This may include setting some boundaries that need to be met if the situation is going to be salvaged, and the courage to follow through if those boundaries are not respected. Likewise with choosing to leave life, it should not be done in a moment of self pity but only after long meditation, being satisfied that there are few realistic prospects of having a meaningful life and understanding that the situation is not likely to improve. I fully support the right of anyone to end their own life, only this is an important decision and not to be done without good reason and plenty of thought.

Peace to all. --Shevek

 

right now:so much love, respect, and wishes of peace sent your way, shevek.

sophia

 

Wellmet

"few realistic prospects of having a meaningfull life."

Rubbish.

You can make yourself into whatever you want. That is your choice.
Exercise it.
If you indeed have meditated [occam takes that to mean thinking, not, non-thinking]
You will understand that the 'you' that exists now.
Finds it hard to believe that the you of the past, did what it did.
Just as the 'you' of NOW. does not see the past you as the same person [as you were not]
The future you will see the you of now as some weird distortion of itself.

And it will most likely say
' i nearly did something stupid, i nearly burnt a bridge behind me."

Occam

 

Occam:

The kind of advice you're giving me comes across to me as a lot of New Age fluff. It sounds to me like you're willing to talk the talk in terms of the theory of allowing someone to choose to commit suicide, but you're a little too scared of the reality of our own mortality when it comes to walking the walk. You're also presuming WAAAY too much about my situation, and you're trying to tell me that I "should" see things a certain way. It's occurred to me that you never even tried to ask me just exactly why I'm considering suicide in the first place (I was deliberately evasive about the details for reasons of my own), and since you rushed to judgement already, I don't think I will tell you. I don't have to justify myself to you anyway, so I'm not going to try.

I'm a lot more experienced in metaphysics than you give me credit for, and I don't need advice from those who mean well but simply can't understand. Besides, I didn't come to this conclusion right away; I've been thinking about this for weeks now, and I've set things up in terms of a definite and deliberate plan. In getting to this place, I've even tried on a lot of different perspectives, and my current perspective is the one that's survived the Reality Test. To put it another way, I'm not going to believe in something without some real evidence, to do otherwise is to succumb to fantasy and wishful thinking. And like a dying cancer patient who would rather not be doped up on painkillers, I prefer my Reality straight up without sugarcoating.

Anyway, I don't believe that any of us has that kind of power to remake Reality, not even in our own lives. After all, the power to order our own lives as we wish would in effect give us the ability to order everyone elses' lives too. A good thing we can't do that, considering how immature the human race is. We've screwed things up enough as is, can you imagine the hell we'd create if all of us DID have that kind of power? The few who do have even a limited degree of that sort of power aren't doing a very good job of exercising it as things are now, and it should be a warning to the rest of us. I do appreciate the need not to impose artificial limits on ourselves, but without some real limits we'd end up throwing ourselves into total chaos.

Of course I do have some decisions I can still make, and I intend to make those decisions whether you like them or not. At least I still have my mind intact so that I have the ability to meaningfully make such decisions, and I have to be frank and state that I don't know how much longer I will even have that much should I choose to live instead. If I'm going to make this kind of decision, it's best to do so while I still can.

Do as you will, but remember that I intend to do as I will too. When you REALLY understand what this means, you will begin to comprehend the true nature of choice freedom and destiny.

Peace, --Shevek

 

You only think you are making choices because God has tricked you. Not that it matters, God makes you think you decided to do something before God does it to you, so you might as well go along with it. If God is gonna "suicide" you, God is gonna "suicide" you (that's if it's best for the people around you).

Choice is an illusion. God guides you to where you are going, although you usually feel willing to do whatever God leads you into doing. God is tricky like that. Fishy if you ask me.