very liberal hindu...

Actually, that's the materialist view. That all spiritual experience is simply a less well known function of the brain. It's not really compatible with most Hindu philosophy in any major sense. Nor is the idea that it's all 'imagination' which is what a 'fabricated wholeness' would amount to.

 

The thing is that I actually did believe the spiritual aspects of the scriptures for a very long time. Of course you can reach God. Of course you are part of God. But than I began to lose faith a little bit. I read a book on neurochemisty and and looked into the cases of recreated NDE's and began to doubt. I began to wonder. Like I said I had always been a very spiritual person but I also believe in science. Perhaps you interpret that as being a weak spiritual person. I began to get into my head that hey, perhaps spirituality dosen't directly come from the higher being, or perhaps that higher being is something material, "seperate" from the full being of God, and began to question. (I'm not sure what I believe anymore but perhaps death is the only way to reach God in all his glory).

Bhaskar, actually I believed in almost all of what the scriptures said for a while. I just had some question's about reincarnation. But as you can imagine, that didn't give me much comfort throughout my daily life and unfortunately that time in my life was pretty busy and I kind of fell into a deppression of sorts. Now I'm trying to burst out of the remnants of the deppression, get back into spiritualiy any way I can (this is where just being kind and reasonable come in; it's the only way I know).

So you've seen two sides of me. My first post was me trying to get back into spirituality (Hinduism) yet still struggling with the neurochemical idea. I said perhaps this is all fake, but I can still benefit from all the different forms of Yoga (mantra, Hatha, because of the chemicals they invoke) yet there really is no need to search for liberation.

I just want to let everyone know that I still believe in God, but NOW (notice the emphasis, ,meaning present tense) I'm not sure any form of spirituality really reaches Him as a whole, his whole being.

And lastly, I just want to say that I think we should leave the negativity behind us. So, I have to ask a favor. When you reply to this please, let's just have a conversation, not a heated argument. I know I have offended some and have played a big part in the negativity from my earlier post, but in all fairness, the anger in this thread was not initialy mine. Let's just talk. If any of you are on a spiritual path (and obviously many of you are) you will know that this is the best thing to do.

 

Maybe your'd benefit more from a zen buddhist approach,


"Zen has from the beginning made clear and
insisted upon the main thesis, which is to see into the work of
creation; the creator may be found busy moulding his universe, or
he may be absent from his workshop, but Zen goes on with its own
work. It is not dependent upon the support of a creator; when it
grasps the reason for living a life, it is satisfied. Hoyen
(died 1104) of Go-so-san used to produce his own hand and ask his
disciples why it was called a hand. When we know the reason,
there is Satori and we have Zen. Whereas with the God of mysticism
there is the grasping of a definite object; when you have God,
what is no-God is excluded. This is self-limiting. Zen wants
absolute freedom, even from God. "No abiding place" means that
very thing; "Cleanse your mouth when you utter the word Buddha"
amounts to the same thing. It is not that Zen wants to be
morbidly unholy and godless, but that it recognizes the
incompleteness of mere name. Therefore, when Yakusan
(aka Yaoshan Weiyan, Yueh-shan Wei-jen, 751-834)
was asked to give a lecture, he did not say a word, but instead
come down from the pulpit and went off to his own room. Hyakujo
merely walked forward a few steps, stood still, and then opened
his arms, which was his exposition of the great principle."

 

As far as I've seen only select portions of a NDE can be reproduced through drugs/strong magnetic fields/etc. (such as perhaps a bright light, or the feeling of a tunnel), but the experience as a whole cannot (at least not at this point.) If there has been a study where people have been given whole near death experiences rather than certain near-death impressions, I'd love to hear about it.

 

philuk, that is really interesting. The idea of Zen outside of God is very intriguing. Thank you very much.

 

to my knowledge I believe you are correct philuk. Parts of the near death experience can be recreated, the tunnel of white light, OBE's, etc but the bonafide NDE is still "in the making" let's say. It just got me thinking though about what if in 50 years these scientist really have found how to recreate THE near death experience and can explain everything the brain does in death. That's knid of scary, but hey, the truth is the truth I guess.

 

There are limits to science. Some regions of our minds can't be explored intentionally yet.

The aim of zen, once the ego is seen as the illusion it is, all your questions and wants will slide away. And you can abide in the moment of now (nothing else exists), one with source/god.

I believe this to be the aim of Hinduism and all religions.

 

Just to say that I certainly haven't felt offended by anything you or anyone else has said. I haven't had an experience of a heated argument here - and also, I don't think you're being negative - if that's what came across then it's just that I haven't expressed myself well.

There is no way in any rational sense that anyone can 'prove' that what are classified as spiritual experiences are not simply the function of different or higher circuts of the brain. Thats true in the areas you mention, and also in the case of psychedelic drugs. The converse is true also - no one can prove conclusively that they rest only on a material basis.
The problem arises that if we accept that this is all purely brain activity, then with the death of the brain, that is the end of consciousness - in other words, there is no immortality of the soul, and indeed, no soul as we think of it - only brain activity. The old materialist notion is that the brain secretes thought as the liver secretes bile.

But one can view this from many different perspectives. I don't think you are 'spiritually weak' for having questions and looking at different possibilities. The opposite in fact. I don't think it's good to only ever look at one point of view, or never to question one's beliefs. That's the path to blind dogmatism.
Faith is not only a thing of the mind. It isn't just a mental assent to a set of propositions, dogmas or beliefs. It is something deeper. It is in the heart, and deeper also than the heart. The mind can put various constructions on it, there is no one and only 'correct' philosophy. Many different sets of views may embody different aspects of truth.
Certain spiritual experiences give a very great faith and confidence in their authenticity, and to my consciousness, they seem to come from 'above' (I use the term only metaphorically) and from outside the manifest universe of matter, life and mind.
But the Divine is there in the cells of the body too, and in all matter.
I can say no more. I'm not asking you to accept my view, but to continue to seek for truth with which you are comfortable. If the methods of Indian Yoga can be of help in that, well and good. If not, look for something which can.
Please understand that this is offered in a spirit of friendly discussion.

*peace*

 

thank you blackbill.

 

I understand the period of questioning that every seeker must initially go through. By Gurudev's grace, that period for me was very smooth, I recieved answers intuitively, almost as fast as I could conjure up questions.

Perhaps you are right, that thought is a mere secretion of the brain. But that would still be the mechanism by which the divine expresses in you, just as evolution is the mechanism by which God created man.

And I agree with philuk, you would probably find some frm of buddhism far more beneficial at this point.

God bless you.

 

I hope you understand Bhaskar that I was only stating what the materialist position is - that is not my own view at all.

As for Buddhism, I agree there's probably some benefit to be gained by checking it out, but since the goal - nirvana or enlightenment is equivalent to Moksha or liberation, I think Peacefulwind would only come up against the same difficulty.