very liberal hindu...

Hi again. I have another question. I consider myself a very liberal hindu because I find myslef reading the Bhagavad/Uddavah Gita and the upinshads and realizing that almost everything that I believe is written in the pages. Yet, there is a problem...


I know that the purpose of a hindus life is to reach liberation. Yet, I'm not searching for liberation. I'm just trying to be a moral, kind guy living my life. I don't disagree with the idea that this is all just an illusion but I still feel as though when I die, that will be it. I won't be forced to reincarnate to cleanse my karma (perhaps this is just wishful thinking, not wanting to believe it so I can kind of slack off). But my question is, can you be a hindu without really believing that it is imperative to strive for liberation. Dosen't that kind of defeat the purpose? Thanks everyone.

 

del

 

This is a difficult question. In a way, asking if you can be a Hindu without seeking liberation is a bit like asking if you can be a Buddhist and not seek enlightenment, or a Christian and not seek salvation.
But it's not quite that clear cut - and I think there are two main reasons for this.
Firstly, the question arises: what is Hinduism? One could reply that it is the indigenous spiritual culture of the Indian sub-continent - but the fact is that it has influenced most aspects of traditional Indian culture, because it recognizes no rigid division of the 'religious' and the 'secular'. Hence Indian art, science, law and many other aspects of life, have all stemmed from the spiritual texts and so on.
On the other hand, we can say that within Indian culture is 'religion', and this exists on various levels. The key really is in the concept of yoga, practices aimed at spiritual realization. Not all concieve of the goal of yoga as liberation, although really, it is considered so by most. Some bhakti yogis say the goal is to serve God - but even then, to attain to a position of serving God truly is to attain liberation. Only a liberated person can really serve God, because ony that person knows Him. There are also other lines of yoga, but in the end all agree that some form of realization is the goal.
The question also arises : can a westerner, born outside India, be or become a Hindu? In some ways, the answer in most cases seems to be no. Or at least in the sense of a total immersion in Indian culture. Can such a person gain anything from Hinduism, or be part of it? Yes. Because really, it's not so much the external culture, but the spiritual realization and so on that is Hinduism. A western person can practice yoga, accept Indian scriptures as authoritative, even attain the highest realization and be accepted as a Guru by native Indians. This was done by Yogi Sri Krishnaprem, who was English by birth and culture. Perhaps most of us can't go that far - but anyone who is sincere can get enormous benefit from yoga practices. And from the teachings of the great sages and saints of India.
And there's no harm in study of any aspect of Indian culture - but for the most part, we in the west have to look for ways of integrating it, making it part of our own culture. It is the essence we want.

Also, on the topic of liberation - it's not just after death or in the next life that this is to be sought after. The whole point is that our present consciousness is false, an illusion with which we are identified, and all our problems in life come from this single cause - avidya, or ignorance. The only solution is vidya - knowledge, and that implies liberation from the illusion.

I know this is a bit rambling, but I hope it helps. I hope too that others will add some comments here.

*shanti - peace*

 

Be the best person you can be and finally when you reach that pinnacle of perfection in yourself, then you can decide... until then you are a hindu.

 

So, whilst trying to be good etc, assuming one lives that long, how is one defined as a Hindu if not seeking moksha, the stated goal of Hinduism?

Also, a quote from William Blake is relevant here: "he who waits to be righteous before entering the saviour's kingdom will never enter in there"
By that I think Blake means that it is only through entry into the saviour's kingdom (salvation, liberation, moksha) that one can concievably be righteous or good. All else is simple ignorance and illusion.

 

I read this book once...and it was a parable book...and in between one of the parables one of the characters kept stating how he was looking for moksha...but the wise teacher told him that if he lived his life the best he could and to love God sincerely, and unceasingly...but not looking for any rewards, not looking for moksha...and one day he would recieve it... your post made me think of that... ::shrug::

 

Good point. But what I meant was that although we may try to do good and be good, without realization it is only our limited human idea of good. And often, that may run quite counter to real good.
My main point though is this: if one is not looking for liberation, realization, moksha, salvation - whatever name one gives it - what is there in Hinduism? Indian culture perhaps, but is that really Hinduism? As I said in my initial reply, it's like saying one is a Buddhist and not seeking enlightenment. I just can't see anything other than a kind of starry-eyed romanticism in such a position!

I should add though that all this applies only to those born outside Hindu culture. For native Indians it's a different story.
Imagine an Indian person bought up in a Hindu culture who wanted to be a Christian - could we in all honesty tell them that they can be Christian and not seek salvation? It seems to me something of a contradiction in terms. They might reply - oh, but I like the Church architecture, Icons, and so on. But really that's only superficial forms. The core of the thing is in salvation.

It's like saying-ok, there is God, and I believe in Him, but despite all these methods of coming closer to Him, getting even to know Him intimately, and despite His own words in Bhagavad Gita that to come to Him is the only real goal of this human existence, I prefer to just believe and carry on in the cherished illusion.........There can be no security in such a position.

 

Oh ok...I see what you're saying... I think

I suppose that it is perhaps...the methods of coming close to Him that...besides the Indian culture...that would make you a Hindu...if it were not for looking for salvation....the path you choose to come close to Him...but even that could be for the point of salvation...its like a very big gray area...that perhaps depends on the person and how they see it all... you know....

I hope some of that made sense... lol...

 

I'll try to put it in very simple terms Nicole - it's like George Harrison said in his intro to Prabhupada's 'Krishna' book - "if there's a God, I want to know Him".

That seems to me the only legitimate reason for one born outside India (or the Hindu diaspora) to take to Hinduism.
I just can't see any other reason why.... and knowing God implies liberation. It is liberation.

 

Got it... Thank you for simpler terms....sometimes I need them. lol...but yes...now I understand what you are saying....

 

You do yourself an injustice!

Also, just to add to what I said, Hindus don't come much more 'liberal' than our George.

 

lol...nah...I call it learning

And yes...I would def. agree with you...George def. did it his own way...

 

A Hindu who doesn't seek liberation is like a vegetarian who eats chicken. He is simply kidding himself.

Having said that, the guy originally posted this thread implied that he wanted to live his life in the best way he can, doing good for all. That is the same thing as seeking liberation, because only a man of realization can know what is good for all, let alone do it. Only an enlightened person lives life the best possible way.

Then again, the poster says he has read the geeta and Upanishads and finds almost all his beliefs reflected there. Yet he does not have desire for the highest truth. The only conclusion I can arrive at is that he has not understood anything of what he read. After all the upanishads and geeta deal exclusively with brahmavidya and the ways to achieve that union with the Self.

My advice to this person is to take time to reflect on what has been read, study deeper, read the commentaries of masters like Sri Aurobindo, Swami Chinmayananda, Adi Shankara and Swami Vivekananda.

Just reading and saying I believe these things is useless. If you really believed what was written there, you would having a burning desire for nothing but liberation.

 

Reading scriptures and just understanding them is not enough and does not make one a hindu, one has to apply them and I can say I have trouble with that alot in my life. If he is like me, he is atleast paying attention to things that "look good" in the scriptures: self control, removal of anger, good sense of tolerance, selfless action (for example community service) , refraining from nonsense lust and focusing on our current duty etc.

If he is trying to achieve those things in his life then I am sure he will come to realize the obvious truths that the scriptures talk about later on. but first he has to become sattvic, it involves not worrying about things like whether one is a hindu ... I mean does it really matter at the end- who we are? We are all taking the bus to eternal life, so who cares if you are in it for the salvation, moksha or just for fun? We are all going to the same destination.

 

Bravo Bhaskar! I agree fully.
I'm just a bit concerned that some (westerners) may label themselves 'Hindu' just because they are looking for some alternative culture, and they find the more superficial spects of it attractive without really understanding the basis of it. But as I said before, I don't think one can say one is following Sanatana Dharma unless one is seeking God, however one concieves of that.
I also worry a bit that perhaps there might be some idea in some people that Hinduism is in some way 'different' than other spiritual paths - I mean for instance that some may reject Christianity in favour of Hinduism not realizing that it's all one and the same thing ultimately.
Myself, I have found value in many different teachings - Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Sufi and others. But really only on the basis of a quest for truth and for God.

 

Read this book.


http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/

 

look guys, I think you misunderstand me. I don't want the label of a Hindu to look cool or any bullshit like that. I was just saying when I read some of the scriptures I agree with what some of them are saying but see this whole "reaching God thing" (usually I wouldn't address this concept in such sarcastic terms but your posts kind of pissed me off) as really just training the mind to release nuerochemicals that are associated with the feeling of spirituality and, basically fooling yourselves just as every other religious person does. So I just wanted to do good (and yes, perhaps I don't know what the "ultimate good" is but God did give me a conscience) and not worry our think that it was imperative to reach a perhaps fabricated wholeness before I die. This is why I would be considered a "very liberal hindu" because I don't neccesarily beleive that what you are reaching is the highest truth, just a truth you fabricated, though this dosen't make it less desirable. Anyway I probably don't make much sense, I'm just rambling and didn't really think any of this through and just realized as I was typing that it is kind of pointless to even reply to this. I really don't care what you think anyway (save the 'then why did you post in the first place crap' please).
Oh, and BlackBill, ok, you don't agree that someone can be a hindu and not search for liberation. I fuckin get it bro.

Well, that is my rant. As I read over it I see that I've allowed my emotions to get the better of me and that it really dosen't express how I feel very well, if making any sense at all. But like I said, fuck it. I don't care.

 

Before anyone replys I just want to say that I'm sorry for the burst of negative and unthoughtful energy which is my previous post. I guess I'm going through some weird stuff and can't control my mind as well as I was once able. The belief remains but I will try to be more calm.

 

Of course you got mad. We pricked your balloon. When we are shown a mirror and we dont like what we see, we want to break the mirror.

Look peacefulwind, you are free to believe what you want. But all that stuff you said about the concept of god being fabricated and neurochemicals and stuff, is completely antithetic to what any hindu scripture says. You don't agree with the philosophy, you don't agree with the goals. So I am now curious to know, exactly which parts of it DO you agree with anyway?

 

Don't worry about 'offending' me. You asked, I responded according to what I understand about Hinduism. I'm sorry if it upset you.

As Bhaskar said, you're free to believe what you want.