ok if i ever have my dream come true (and i plan it to) then i will have my own little place in the country, and we will have cows and chickens and pigs and all those awesome animals. i am a vegeterian going on vegan. BUT. i will only milk the cows and use the milk and cheese, i would never lay a harmful finger on them, and there would only be a few of them and they would have an entire acre to themselves (assuming of course i have a lot of land) pigs- they just live in peace, with of course more than enough room to themselves chickens- i would cook some of the eggs for breakfast, but the chickens and their eggs get to have their own community, the chickens rarely die (sometimes we would eat them) why would i not be a vegeterian? because i would not be forcing these animals in cramped conditions, they are not raised for food, they have their own communities. the reason i am a vegeterian is because i don't want to support the enslavement and abuse of animals for food, whether its their milk or their legs. the animals on my farm would have a chance to live and be free!
well you wouldn't really be a vegetarian don't see whats wrong with that, as long as the animals have good conditions, I mean thats the way farming is supposed to be, it just isn't.
You'd still be vegetarian, and probably have a more compassionate lifestyle than those who do not eat truly free range eggs etc. Do what you want, as long as it feels right to you then it's not a problem. TTFN Sage
Have you seen how cruel it is to raise pigs free-range? Ever had to try and stop a sow from eating her own litter? Ever seen them lie in the sun until they die of sunburn - even when they have perfectly good shelter? Ever asked why farmers use some of the 'cramped' methods that they do? Animals do not have moral code like we do, you cannot try and expect it from them - even the best raised chickens can kill each other. Stick to cows mate, they sound like the only ones that you could raise without being fundamentally cruel, take it from the vegetarian son of a farmer. You simply haven't had the experience around the animals to know the first thing about what is and isn't feasible. Oh, and stop anthropomorphising animals! I do not support unnecessarily cramped conditions (i.e. battery farm hens), but I do support anything that has good reasoning behind it (i.e. is in the animals' best interest (note the plural, protect piglets from their mothers)).
How is anyone anthropomorphizing animals? She's just wanting to give them the chance to live like they were created: without restraint and torture....she's not creating some kind of weird community where they live like brothers and sisters together..... But then, I'm not the vegetarian son of a farmer.... I just milked a goat once in first grade. So, I'm no expert.
I commend her for attempting to alleviate torture (which she does not, as any animal demonstrates a preference towards living - thus foresaking vegetarianism is unethical) but I will suggest that, to a greater or lesser degree, animals (particularly agricultural ones that we have essentially weakened through farming) live a life of less suffering with certain restraints in place. For example, wet sow stalls are permissable as they protect the piglets from their mother, dry sow stalls, however, are simply torture, not restraint. I thought this was about letting the animals live with a degree of liberty - yes - that's fine, but doesn't quality of life come into the picture too? You must remember that 'creation' of these animals was a process, we have altered them, bred them, they are not the wild free animals that their ancestors are, and to try and let them be tends to kill them. Ever seen what happens to a cow with an infection on an 'organic' farm? Imagine if we didn't treat a human infection with antibiotics! It is blatant cruelty. Do not chant your new-age mantras about 'freedom for animals', do not pretend that everything has a simply answer. Don't be lazy, learn about the best ways to love.
I don't know anything about pigs, and have little experiance with cows, but chickens I know about! Free range chickens is a good idea! They are very unlikely to kill eachother when they have enough room to roam, and enough things to peck. They will peck eachother, but a pecking order is important for a "chicken sociecy." They will die, and sometimes at the hands - I mean beaks of the other hens, but that is not YOU being cruel, that is just chickens being chickens! As for milking cows, I do not know very much about it, like I said before, but here is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong here.) To get milk from a cow you will have to mate her. Then, when she has her baby *I have heard* that you have to take the baby away and feed the baby yourself, so that there is ample milk for you. Now, taking the baby so that there is enough milk for you doesn't make any sense to me! If cows' lactation is anything like humans' you wouldn't have to, because it would work on "suppily on demand." This means that the cow would make more milk the more she is milked. So, if you let the calf nurse from her mother, and you still regularly milk her I don't see where the problem is. However, if you do HAVE to take the calf from her mother, that is cruel. Oh yeah, and being a vegitarian really has nothing to do with animal cruelty, it is only specific to what you eat. Being vegan on the other hand, does.
LOL! Seriously? You think every human infection should be treated with antibiotics?! Mastitise (sp?) which is a breast infection, does not need to be treated with antibiotics. I have had several myself, and never used antibiotics, that is not even a good way to treat it! There are natural ways which work much better, but the best thing to do is just get the milk out, be it through exspessing it out, or nursing it out, though nursing is milions of times better! This is true. I'm thinking particularly of a bread of chickens that if they are not killed 3 months(?) their little chicken legs will break from the weight of their bodies! However, there are breads that are safe to have and let live.
Whoever said all infections. I'm talking cuts and grazes that turn green here! They happen, and often, on animals that aren't always the most docile beings. Mastitis happens often in cows, it's easily treated without antibiotics, yes, fine - but what harm are the antibiotics doing? ..and Mastitis is an incredibly bad example in that it is easy to treat, whereas most infections that a cow might get from a cut or a scratch aren't. Often you don't notice an infection on such a large animal, even when you do notice them you can't always control them with a dab of tea-tree oil. Cows lie on thorns, stones, sticks, they get cuts, they fight, they play fight, they get horny and jump on each other. Cows can get blood poisoning too, and I'd like to see you treat that effectively without antibiotics! Come back to me when you've seen all but five of a herd of 300 cows die on an organic farm next door from eczema all because once the 'natural' treatment for the eczema had failed to save the cows from becoming masses of weeping flesh our neighbours thought that they could manage by treating the ensuing infections without antibiotics. It was one of the cruelest, saddest scenes I've ever witnessed. Nothing is black and white, you just have to know where to draw and line and stop being stubborn. You can't simplify things too much - 'nature' isn't the be all and end all of healthy living. It certainly isn't utilised enough, but it's also seldom as effective as more synthetic methods in major cases. That's a ridiculous generalisation, I'm not vegan because I do not over-simplify matters, I do not wear anything that I purport to be cruel, nor do I eat it. I buy free-range eggs, I drink milk, I eat cheese made with vegetable rennet. I rationalise every part of my vegetarianism around animal cruelty - but I DO eat and use some animal products. Don't go claiming the moral high ground here.
Oh, I'm not trying to fight with you, wk. It seemed to me that you were generalizing that every infection, on humans and animals, and proclaiming the wonders of antibiotics! I see now that you are not. Like I said before, I do not know much about cows. I do know that with animals antibiotics can behelpful, as a last resort, but their is a world of trouble and controversy pertaining to antibiotics, that I don't think we need to go into on this thread. Also, I thought you were reffering specificly to mastitis. Let's not fight. I can see that you do know what you are talking about, and have experience. I agree that we should not just generalize things because nothing is black and white. What I meant by "...being a vegitarian really has nothing to do with animal cruelty, it is only specific to what you eat. Being vegan on the other hand, does." is that not everyone who is vegitarian cares about animal cruelty. There are plenty of veggies who only do it for health reasons, and think there is nothing wrong with the way anmals are treated. So, wk, was what I said about milking cows anywhere close to reality?
Yeah, the cow argument was entirely reasonable; I have to agree there, although domesticated cows sometimes have a hard time weaning their young themselves, which can lead to the mother and calf fighting as the calf gets bigger, but that's no big deal. Sorry, I'm one of those people who loves to fight and argue, and assumes everyone will know it's all in good faith.
gosh you guys.. im sorry i caused all this arguing im not mad but you guys really made me upset and sad, i think maybe you misunderstood me- i wasnt implying that i was going to let them lives their own lives completely independent from my family and i, i do realize that we've taken it upon ourselves and it is our responsibility to take care of the animals we domesticate. i am a vegeterian because of moral reasons, not health reasons, and i take back drinking the milk and cheese. i will take care of the animals and make sure they are healthy, i will do everything in my power to make sure they are comfortable and living a good life. i dont take being misunderstood very well, it makes me quite upset.. it's not your fault and im not implying it is, its just my nature
Aww darling it's okay really. Debates round here often get very intense. This is nothing compared to Astro/Didge + omnis. Things have calmed down a lot since they went (got banned, can't think why ) It's nothing personal when threads get hijacked and end up like this. Just roll with, never know sometimes they can educational. TTFN Sage
Ugh, me too!!! I'm trying to work on it, because the arguments have gotten to personal for me lately, and I have a hard tiem letting go, and leaving it at the computer (or the thread.) *deep breath* I'm working on practcing what I preach, I AM GOING TO BE MORE PEACEFUL AND LOVING!
