'I lost my job because I was a man playing with children'

dotadave · Jul 4, 2005

Closing Thread as soon as I discover how...

.................
This came from SomethingAwful.com's Debate and Discussion forum which is predominantly male. I want to get more of a female perspective on the issue. The following quote is the story in the original post in the thread and the other quotes are selected replies.

Philip Bennison, 55, from Cambridge, has been married for 33 years to Jane and has six children and eight grandchildren. He ran a printing business for 20 years, did youth work for 25 years and completed nine courses in caring for children. Here he tells Gill Swain why he believes men are right to avoid working with children

Sunday June 19, 2005
The Observer

I find Ruth Kelly's plans to open hundreds of after-school clubs and the government's pleas for more men to work in them a complete joke. What happened to me when I was a playleader demonstrates why men steer clear of these jobs and why they are right to do so.

There could have been few men better qualified for the part-time job I took at an after-school club for four-to-11-year-olds. I was always a very active father and, when mine grew up, I missed that involvement.

I adored the job, but the restrictions imposed on me became unbearable. I have never been accused of abusing a child, but I was judged to be "too tactile". I lost my job, in effect, for being a man playing with children.

I started in September 2002 and the first year was wonderful. I taught skipping, roller-skating, balancing along the tops of walls and playing the electric organ. Parents appreciated the presence of a male playleader because children relate to you differently.

I learnt in training about "inappropriate touching", being told that piggybacks were all right, but men shouldn't take children on their laps. Children would want to climb on my knee but I'd immediately stand up and push them away.

Last spring the committee told me I was "getting too close" to some of the children. They said I must stop holding children around the waist and only take their hands. It wasn't easy teaching children to skate that way and it was unpleasant to feel I was being watched and under suspicion.

One day a girl of nine ran up crying, saying she had been bullied by two boys. She leant her head on my chest and I put a comforting arm around her. For that I was given a written warning. Apparently, when she put her head on my chest it was "child-led touching", which was acceptable, but when I responded it was "adult-led touching", which was not. I was told that if it happened again I should fetch a female playworker.

Piggybacks were banned. I was not allowed to tickle children, pick them up or swing them around, no matter how much they pleaded. When I pointed out that women colleagues often sat with children on their laps, I was told it was a fact of life that males were seen as more of a risk to children.

I felt I was being victimised for being a man. I didn't think it inappropriate to hold children around the waist, but I agreed to adopt a "no touch" policy and withdrew from the children to concentrate on office work.

One day last June, I was suspended. Someone had allegedly overheard two children talking about me and had made a report to the police. I have never been told who it was, who the children were, or what they said.

The police never contacted me and when I rang them after six weeks they said they had no record of any investigation. It's impossible to defend yourself when you don't know what the charge is or who is accusing you.

But the fact a report was said to have been made led Ofsted to tell the committee to ensure I was always supervised when I returned to work last September.

I was asked to resign but refused. They produced a document citing "causes for dismissal", containing statements from eight people relating to incidents which they said supported their case.

Some of them were true, such as when I cheered up a girl of five who was miserable on her first day by holding her hands and helping her jump. One statement said the girl's skirt was flying up, "clearly displaying her underwear". The mother had given me a "look", but I didn't stop.

Other incidents were equally minor or could not have happened. A boy told his mother he'd seen me with a girl on my knee and my fingers in her trouser waist-band. I had never taken a child on my lap.

I was devastated and wanted to fight, but my union told me it was impossible to prove a negative. Very reluctantly, I agreed to resign with compensation of £1,390 and was given a reference which said I had "difficulty in complying with the club's child-protection policy".

I feel very angry and stigmatised, but also helpless because a man in this situation gets no support.

In training I was often the only man among 20 women, but now there is one more man lost to childcare because I will never work with children again. You don't have to do anything wrong or be near children. Being a man in that job makes you vulnerable.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/gender/story/0,11812,1509908,00.html

Other anecdotes from the same forum I found this on:

mlmp08 came out of the closet to say:
Tbe problem with working with kids is, they can say whatever the fuck you want and it ruins you, professionally. My ex-girlfriend worked with kids, and I can never imagine her doing ANYTHING to hurt a kid. She was told that "someone" had seen her dragging a child across the pavement by the ankle. The time cited was when the only people in the building were staff and children, and of the 4 children in her age group she was caring for, 1 was a constant liar, about everything from what color her shoes were to making up a story about how her father had killed 4 policemen in their front lawn.

Yeah, she got fired because of that one report with zero chance to defend herself.
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grobo came out of the closet to say:
I worked with kids as a volunteer for two days a few years ago. I'm a big friendly looking guy and most kids tend to graviate to me. It only took a couple of hours before all the kids were comfortable around me. Little girls and boys were trying to get on my lap every time I sat down; the usual stuff kids do around adults. Some of the looks the women gave me were less than enthusiastic, and I realized almost instantly that I was taking a massive risk by putting myself into a situation like that and got right the fuck out. All it takes is for one shrill idiot to fling an accusation at you and your life is pretty much changed forever.

A good friend of mine works in a halfway house for problematic adolescents and it's the same thing. By policy he can't be out of sight of a female co-worker at just about any time. A lot of it is for his protection as well though.. If a teenage girl gets out of control and has to be physically restrained, he says most of them start screaming rape almost instantly just to get back at them, or if not that then accusing the workers of groping them afterwards. It's a pretty sad society we live in.
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Hemogoblin! came out of the closet to say:

This sort of behavior is so acceptable that the abusers often write books about it - there's no stigma attached to being a female child abuser, but there's stigma attached to just being a male. Period.

This is as bad as those "moral hygiene" films from the 50's. Oh look - here's one about homosexuals! Watch this film, and note the similarities to the current situation.

http://www.archive.org/details/boys_beware
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Fire came out of the closet to say:

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Choadmaster came out of the closet to say:

For those that have never been in the situation, it is amazing how difficult this can be to do.

I'm fortunate enough to live in a part of the US that is relatively liberal in that respect. When I was a camp counselor, at the end of the standard child-safety lecture (which included sensible things like never go into a bathroom alone with a child) we were warned: "The children will use you as mobile jungle gyms. Don't be afraid to tell them to stop if it gets to be too much!"

And so they did. There was not a single moment where any of us did not have a kid on his shoulders (if standing) or lap (if sitting) - that is what children do! They are the most tenaciously clingy creatures in the universe when given the opportunity; it is perfectly normal. At the time, I was fortunate that my only reason to refuse them was because it was someone else's turn (something most kids will understand).

Later, while visiting a friend of mine in another state, I accompanied him to work at an after-school/weekend kids program for a few days. He'd warned me not to be too physical with the kids, but when a boy asked me for a piggyback ride it didn't even occur to me that might be considered inappropriate! It was fortunate I was a clueless visitor; when I was "caught" by one of the female employees I got off easy.

Shocked, I spent the rest of the day carefully observing the male employees' interactions with the kids. The kids spent a large portion of their play time trying to physically interact.. they had gotten pretty good at starting off small and escalating the interaction with the adults - tagging, grabbing, poking etc. would eventually lead to a kid trying to climb or jump onto an adult's back. At that point either the man would back off and tell the child to stop, or the aforementioned female employee would swoop in and berate both parties (actually, when present she would generally step in much earlier - anything more than a pat on the back was 'inappropriate").

It was a sad and frustrating thing to watch.

And then came the kicker: At snack time, when all the kids were sitting on some bleachers munching on apples (okay, junk food), this woman sat down and pulled a child into her lap. At the time I was clearly naive; I had stupidly assumed the rules applied equally to everyone.

Over the next few days I heard lots of kids ask one man or another why he wouldn't let them sit in his lap... "[insert woman's name here] lets me do it all the time!" They always left confused or hurt because the only real answer is one that is too stupid and nonsensical to try to explain to a kid: Because I'm a man.

It has gotten to the point where if a man is even willing to put up with this crap to work with kids, he is still essentially walled off from them; this paranoia has far surpassed the point where it does more harm than good. No man is going to diddle little Johnny in the middle of the playground during recess! To deny every kid the right to act like a kid, to get the kind of interaction and attention the need just because some guy out there maybe might possibly enjoy giving little Johnny a piggyback ride a little too much hurts every kid and helps none.

There are already plenty of sensible cautionary measures out there (like no adult should be alone with a kid). If anything, it is those rule that need more attention and stricter enforcement (god knows how many times I myself ended up taking kids to the bathroom by myself.. nobody really paid attention). Most importantly, whatever rules are applied must be applied equally to everyone; no man should ever be put in a position of trying to explain to a kid why the kid can sit in Jenny's lap but not his.
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Captain-Obvious came out of the closet to say:

"We understand the stigma that is thrust upon men who choose to work with children, and we understand that that stigma leads to much unfounded suspicion. However, to allow parents to have peace of mind, we do not approve of men working with young children, unless they really, really, really want to. I mean, we're talkin' someone who wants only to work with small children as much as possible and will do anything and bear any kind of stigma to do it. Surely this policy will make for a safer environment."
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He grabbed girl's arm -- now he's a sex offender
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-molest01.html
July 1, 2005

BY STEVE PATTERSON Staff Reporter

Fitzroy Barnaby said he had to swerve to avoid hitting the 14-year-old Des Plaines girl who walked in front of his car.

She said he yelled, "Come here, little girl," before getting out of his car and grabbing her by the arm.

He said he simply lectured her.

She said she broke free and ran, fearful of what he'd do next.

In a Thursday ruling, the Appellate Court of Illinois said the 28-year-old Evanston man must register as a sex offender.

While acknowledging it might be "unfair for [Barnaby] to suffer the stigmatization of being labeled a sex offender when his crime was not sexually motivated," the court said his actions are the type that are "often a precursor" to a child being abducted or molested.

Though Barnaby was acquitted of attempted kidnapping and child abduction charges stemming from the November 2002 incident, he was convicted of unlawful restraint of a minor -- which is a sex offense.

'Most stupid ruling'

Now, he will have to tell local police where he lives and won't be able to live near a park or school.

"This is the most stupid ruling the appellate court has rendered in years," said Barnaby's Chicago attorney, Frederick Cohn. "If you see a 15-year-old beating up your 8-year-old and you grab that kid's hand and are found guilty of unlawful restraint, do you now have to register as a sex offender?"

But Cook County state's attorney spokesman Tom Stanton said Barnaby should have to register "because of the proclivity of offenders who restrain children to also commit sex acts or other crimes against them."

In the criminal case against him, Cook County Judge Patrick Morse said that "it's more likely than not" Barnaby planned only "to chastise the girl" when he grabbed her, but "I can't read his mind."

"I don't really see the purpose of registration in this case. I really don't," Morse said. "But I feel that I am constrained by the statute."

Recognizing the stigma that comes with being labeled as a sex offender, the appellate court said "it is [Barnaby's] actions which have caused him to be stigmatized, not the courts."
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HippyFreek2004 · Jul 4, 2005

This is ridiculous. In our society (and I'm generalising), we complain that men are not active enough in children's lives and then we complain that they are TOO active, TOO involved, TOO touchy feely. It's disturbing.

All we are doing is perpetuating gender roles and misconceptions about each gender. Why can't a guy be caring and close to a child? There are more child molesters that are men than women, yes, but we can't just seperate men from dealing with children, just because of the amount of child molesters.

This makes me sick.

ydnim · Jul 4, 2005

It sounds crazy, but if you have ever heard of NAMBLA then you may understand why some parents could be uneasy. It is a huge liability and if any daycare or children's facility has even an accusation of child abuse the stigma will follow the institution and anyone working there forever.

That said, I really do think it is crazy. I know plenty of loving men who are terrific with children and could do wonders as male role model in a predominantly female led household.

feministhippy · Jul 4, 2005

Jesus Christ, this pisses me off. When I think of something better to say, I will.

pansy · Jul 4, 2005

i'm not a man, but i' ve experienced something similar...although no official 'reports' were filed. i was working in a home for children with developmental disabilities when i was 19 or 20. after i worked there about a month i was seen giving a little girl about 5 years old a kiss on the forehead at bedtime. i was reamed out in front of the entire staff for this by the head nurse....'inappropriate touching'. i was traumatized...quit and left and have been scared to work with children ever since. i can't imagine what it must be like to be a man in this position. it really makes me mad that children are being institutionalized and all signs of affection being forcibly suppressed. no wonder there's so much mental illness around!

peace,

pansy

icedteapriestess · Jul 4, 2005

My mother is a teacher, and they aren't supposed to touch the kids they are teaching. No hand on the shoulder and giving a "good job" squeeze while writting a hard math test even. Mom says it easier that way... if you have a "no touching" policy, then the Parents feel better... they know you aren't going to sexually touch or violently punish Junior.

I think its bunk. There are sickos out there... but so many people who are good people are being railroaded and punished.

dotadave · Jul 4, 2005

Keep in mind, that people are often forced to plea bargan when they are accused of these things and wind up permanently stigmatized in sex offender registries. People get so caught up in victim's rights that they don't realize that wrongfully accused people have no way fighting back if the victim's credibility can't be questioned. It creates situations where people have to prove their innocence, which is impossible.

Green · Jul 4, 2005

This makes me sad.

gdhmomchild · Jul 5, 2005

icedteapriestess said:

My mother is a teacher, and they aren't supposed to touch the kids they are teaching. No hand on the shoulder and giving a "good job" squeeze while writting a hard math test even. Mom says it easier that way... if you have a "no touching" policy, then the Parents feel better... they know you aren't going to sexually touch or violently punish Junior.

I think its bunk. There are sickos out there... but so many people who are good people are being railroaded and punished.
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The world is a crazy place. If they are not with children unattended,that would be the best policy. The problem too is they have to have everything spelled out in black and white. Its terribly unfair if one gender is allowable and one is not, especially since so many homes are single parent and many kids don't have a male figure in their lives.

Day care fills a different gap than school. A shame either way but if there is no personal interaction to a childs needs before, during and after school, there are going to be some attention starved kids.

I hate the way society stigmatizes a man for wanting, enjoying working with small kids. One of the best summers when I was a kid was the lifeguard at out apts pool. He was going to be a kiddygarden teacher that fall and he was so amazing with us, taught me all kinds of wrestling moves in the pool (easier in water, nobody got hurt) played water tag and all kindsa games with us. Now he would be looked at and judged harshly and could have faced criminal charges.

fountains of nay · Jul 5, 2005

This topic just makes me angry and ashamed of our society

Green · Jul 5, 2005

They are told not to touch kids anywhere but the shoulders.

Kastenfrosch · Jul 5, 2005

It really makes me sad too.

verseau_miracle · Jul 5, 2005

It upsets me that people have had to become this cautious, because i know there are so many decent men out there.

I can, however, understand why men the children do not know should be prevented from touching them. When i was 14 i was going through a few emotional problems, and was sent to a school counsellor. It was nothing major, i just needed someone to talk to. This guy started off my holding my hand and reassuring me about things...as i do not have a father figure, i didnt really know how men were supposed to behave around me, and so i just left it. It finally got worse as the days went on, until he was rubbing my neck and holding my hands regularly, and when his wife entered the room, he would stop and say "lets not be so friendly now, eh". I didnt realise at the time that this was totally inappropriate, but now that i do i look back in anger.

As i was going through emotional problems i was vulnerable. I think its only right that NO starngers should touch you without your permission...even if youre a child(of course very small children is different, im talking about older children) Children are people...and we should keep our hands to ourselves unless its totally necessary.

All that aside, i do feel for this guy. It appears he was wrongly condemned.

Love-Maxi.Xx

SunshineLily · Jul 5, 2005

How ridiculous! That makes me even more determined that if i have kids they are going to be homeschooled up to a certain age so that they can have the right interactions with a balanced variety of people.
I agree with Nay, it makes me feel ashamed of our society.
Is it like this in other cultures?
Sunny
xxx

Kastenfrosch · Jul 5, 2005

touching is different in every culture. Something that is usually looked down upon in western cultures is for example that arabian men hold hands with their best friends on the streets.

verseau_miracle · Jul 5, 2005

I hold hands with my friends in the streets! Friends i have no problem with...its starngers that should keep their mitts off.

Xx

verseau_miracle · Jul 5, 2005

strangers* typos, grr

gdhmomchild · Jul 5, 2005

Blackie said:

Women feel threatened by men in traditionally female fields-we subjugated them for so long, this is part of their get back in many cases.
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I think you should have stuck with the world is run by lawyers theory instead. Media perpetuated stereotypes in terrible news stories that feed into parents fears in a lawsuit happy america. Look at those huge news media frenzies about the daycares that ended up being bullshit a decade ago.

IronGoth · Jul 5, 2005

RE: I think you should have stuck with the world is run by lawyers theory instead.

I think you should think about this - the very best way a woman can "get back at" any man she has a problem with is to make an anonymous phone call suggesting the person might have committed some kind of sexual abuse.

That's why women don't HAVE to be physically violent- they leave that to the state.

gdhmomchild · Jul 5, 2005

IronGoth said:

RE: I think you should have stuck with the world is run by lawyers theory instead.

I think you should think about this - the very best way a woman can "get back at" any man she has a problem with is to make an anonymous phone call suggesting the person might have committed some kind of sexual abuse.

That's why women don't HAVE to be physically violent- they leave that to the state.
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Hmmm...All this time I thought we were discussing isues of daycare policies...I MUST have been mistaken and wandered into a thread about women crying rape when there was none. I know that happens and find it apalling but that wasn't what the thread was about and if anything strengthens the point about a litigation happy place this has become.

Its a conspiracy I tell yah! Women are behind it all!! ~pfft~
Its people keep steroetyping and gender bashing that help keep the stigmas going. When we can judge as person on their individual merits and not by age, sex, creed or color, will we eventually evolve a fraction more.

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'I lost my job because I was a man playing with children'

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'I lost my job because I was a man playing with children'

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