is it true that although Islamic Law was sent by the Lord, if the laws of your country forbids something under Islamic Law, the coutry laws take presidense and are to be followed instead?
Depends... For instance.. if the country law said everbody must start eating pork we wouldnt follow it but if it said(and it does) that rapists should have a mild sentence(sitting in a luxury cell enjoying them selves with some tasty food, grrrrr) while they would be executed in islamic law we wouldnt hunt them down but live by the law of the country. By living in a country you are agreeing to follow its laws, thus a muslim cant break the laws of that nation since hes not allowed to be a breaker of treaties. You have to define by what you mean by "islamic law" since not everything is mandatory but rather some things are supergratory and could be left out without any burden.
what i was refering to, basically, was the punishments for crimes [for example the exucutions]... i have to go eat now...i may expand later
ok, i re-read your post...and i never knew that muslims aren't suposed to be "breakers of treaties", thats acctually quite interesting... i think what brought this upno me was all the tlak in the Christanity forum of pot smoking and whatnot...im not God, but i dont think He would like it that much of just blatantly defiant illegal activity...well, thats at least what i think
cab how do you define rape, I mean mohammed would be in jail for rape so would most of his followers . why do you go grrrrrrr with the thought of some imaginary rapist in a comfy cell when you follow such a low life child rapist yourself . and this doesnt just include aisha mohammeds six year old wife it includes all the children mohammed made into sex slaves . if you look at right hand possessions and slavery lots of the people made into slaves must have been little children
That is sooo different. I would like to point out that Islam meant a huge advantage for the women in that time. The tribes in that land didn't have any rules about marriage and a man could easily be married to 10 women. If this man died his sons could throw a jacket over their head and say 'this woman is mine' and then he could do whatever he wanted to her. In Islam women are protected from that sort of behaviour. And I'm not sure whether Muhammed had sex with his six-year old wife. To be honest, I can't imagine it. But Muhammed was known for his respect towards women, and in the battle of the camel aisha's advise is really important.
Right hand possessions are women who can be raped by their Muslim captors, this rape happened because of Mohammed how is this respecting women? Mohammed said that most of the people in hell are women and that they were deficient in intelligence and religion, that in court two women’s testimony is only equal to that of one man so basically they are halfwits. How do you know how women were treated before Islam, Islamic scripture is biased in favour of Islam, and Muslims are great at destroying anything of earlier cultures that shows up Islam. You have women who fought leading army’s against Islam, you have Mohammed’s first wife who was a rich successful business women before Islam, and you have haddith where Islamic women envy the degree of freedom of some of the non Islamic tribes During the battle of camel Mohammed was dead so she wouldn’t have been able to give him any advice. She did play a big part in the battle of camel, that’s the battle where Mohammed’s cult killed thousands of each other , the battle of camel pretty much shows what a great example he was that as soon as he dies the bandits he led start fighting each other . And they have been doing the same ever since why cant you see Mohammed having sex with a child he has dreams about her being carried towards him wrapped in cloth this was before he married her so shes under 6 years old, he’s in his fifties and he’s dreaming of a very very young child maybe a baby sexually . You have aisha saying she had sex with him, and that she was playing with her dolls when he first married her . there are lots of dodgy men about now who want to have sex with children lots of them set up cults too Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/006.sbt.html#001.006.301 Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Sahih Bukhari 9.140 Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' " You could imagine someone like the late david koresh having similar dreams its pretty common to have pedophile crazy cult leaders
Thank you for your "questions" johnny and I will hopefully try to answer them with references from Quran and Sunnah. Your obviously a man who knows something about hadith, thus you must be familiar with the importance of saying the truth[in islam] as the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon said) : "Say the truth, even if its bitter". You claim atleast 2 things in your post: (1). Muhammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was an phedofile. (2). Islam degraded women.(you may be suprised by what the scriptures say ^^) Before we can explain anything, let us know the words we are using. A phedofile is according to Encyclopedia Britannica :"Pedophile: also spelled PAEDOPHILIA, psychosexual disorder in which an adult's arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The typical paedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and may have low self-esteem, seeing sexual activity with a child as less threatening than that with an adult." May I ask you if you know the age of the other wives whom hed married? Is it not true Johnny that his first wife was a widow, almost 20 years older than him? Is it not true that he married old barren women whos beauties had long dissappeared, is it not true that he was praised for taking care of widows who had no way of income? Percentage of his wives who were 17 years and older = 91 % Is this in accordance with the description of a pedophile? The known attributes of a pedophile is that he is abusive, can you produce any hadith or historical document which supports him being abusive towards Aisha?(may Allah be pleased with her). What you will find is a known consensus through out the encyclopedias and known muslim and non-muslim scholars who will tesitify that this man was not abusive. "It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, - Annie Besant,The Life and Teachings of Muhammad Did she grow up as an abused child or did she become one of the greatest scholars of islam due to her living with the prophet from an early age? She was the one whom the people traveled to just to hear some words of hadith or for a verdict on a certain subject so how can we call her abused? So if you accept her own testimony of her age being nine (not six, and marriage Johnny is more than sex. Babies were wed in Europe to join nations but this doesnt mean they had sex!) then i guess you also believe her testimony of the great character of her husband? He thus showed us the lowest you can go(in terms of marriage) and also the other way since he married a really old woman aswell. Secondly you claim that muslim women are/were degraded and opressed. From a historical viewpoint this is an extremley ignorant statement. Before the coming of this prophet women were deprived from any economic right and social ones aswell. They where seen as slaves in Greek and Rome, told to obey their own sons in China and hated in Christian Europe for being the "starters of sin"(which is quite interesting since the Quran admonished them both while the Bible of today says only Eve). Let us see what the scriptures of islam says: "O you who believe! You are not permitted to inherit women against their will(not allowed to marry them against wishes), nor to prevent them from marriage in order to get part of (the dowry) what you have given them, unless they commit open Fahishah(adultury). And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good." [Quran "The Women" verse 19] You say "so basically they are halfwits" and claim they are seen as lower men while the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said: "Women are the twin halves of men."(how can you claim that a half is lesser than another, interesting way of mathmetics you learn over there ^^) The quran confirms this by saying: 9.71: The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil This is an interesting fact acually, since christians scholars where acually debating if women possesed a soul (in order to know if she can enter paradise) or not in the 16 century while its said in the Quran: "Whosoever does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, him verily We shall quicken with good life, and We shall pay them a recompense in proportion to the best of what they used to do." Qur'an 16:97. I claim that the women became greatly honored with islam, why? 1. She was given an economic right which was totally new to that era. The right to own and dispose of wealth(which christian and jewish women did not have). In islam, a woman is NOT forbidden from working in a premissible job. Did you know that their were more women working as proffesures in universities in medevil times (in muslim countries) than there are TODAY IN THE WEST??? Did you know that the first headmaster of the first university built in this world(in Cairo) was a woman? So what does this economical status mean? It means that "what is hers is hers but what is yours(as a husband) is to be given to her aswell" Now this is a great honoring which you cannot deny! "And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in a just manner" [Quran 2.228] One of the most beautiful statements made by the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was made during a sermon known as the last sermon which he delivered to thousands of his companions: "O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers..." 2. The treatment of women in general. The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him said) “The best of you are those who are best to their wives" and concerning the mother he said: "Paradise is under her feet". And concerning our daughters he said: "If anyone has a female child, and does not bury her alive, or slight her, or prefer his male children over her, Allah will bring him into Paradise." Remember G.Bernad Shaw, the nobel prize winner who fought for women and human rights in the early 20 century? This man was an admirer of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) so I ask, would such a man who fought for women rights ever seek a woman opressor as a role model? He said: "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity" Or even Ghandi whom after praising the prophet -peace and blessing of Allah be upon him- said: "When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life." In simple terms, women in the pre-islamic period were subject to oppression and even buried when they where born and when the light of monotheism reached them they where given rights women in the West had to wait for until the beginning of the past century(a lady in the states couldnt even buy a car without her husband written approvment in the 50s) Finally I can say Johnny that you may or may not have become a victim of stereotyping but I can tell you without any deluding arbitrary statements that this blessed man brought a message to an ignorant society of theieves and murderers into the greatest nation seen until this day by teaching them women rights, human rights and the most important right, the right of God. Verily, the Muslims: men and women, the believers: men and women, the Qanit: men and the women, the men and women who are truthful, the men and the women who are patient, the Khashi`: men and the women, the men and the women who give Sadaqat, the men and the women who fast, the men and the women who guard their chastity and the men and the women who remember Allah much with their hearts and tongues, Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a great reward.[Quran Ahzab]
Why are you wasting your time by writing a long message of hatred when we live in a world where evil has had too much of a share already. Now I do not know from what "source" you derive your moral code from but in Islam we are strongly forbidden to tease the faith of other people and if we muslims whom you view as lowlife monsters are told this then im sure you can manage that aswell : )
how is what Ive said hatred Im just pointing out that mohammed had sex with children and that he had a low opinion of women, surely people wishing to learn something about islam need to know this . Im not making up stuff about him Im not calling him a cannibal (which there is no evidence that he was ) there is evidence that he made people into sex slaves and tortured people and killed hundreds of people . Im not anti arab in fact I have a number of arabic friends , I am anti islam because I think its fake and dangerous and I feel that its holding what is now called the islamic world back . and I do I think understand how you feel although I may not show it , because I used to believe in prophets too at one time
and I dont think all muslims are lowlife monsters , I think the religion is much worse than a lot of the people involved in it . I think what Im doing is pointing out the negitive parts of the religion as applied by mohammed so that muslims and non muslims can see them and leave the religion well alone .
Well sure ^^, but I must say its alittle ineffective(The "kind" information which non-muslims are often soo pleased with to offer). Islam is without doubt the fastest growing religion with greatest number of converts in the world and this aswell in the states and most of those converts are women.
my former church used to claim to be the fastest growing its a pretty common claim . also muslims are very busy killing each other and saying that this or that branch of islam isnt real islam but then when it comes to their claims to be the fastest growing they seem happy to accept them if it adds to their numbers are shia muslims or Kharijis ,Druze,Alawi,Ismali,Ahmadiyyah,or Sufi at the moment I think there are more christians in the world than anyone that doesnt mean they are right , at one time you had millions of people who believed in sun gods or odin and thor and they would have been the fastest growing religion. so I dont think it really matters
The groups you mentioned stand for a really, really small part and the conversions are not mainly from them. So now you claim its just a comment based on wishes, I guess the following sources(including the CIA world fact book) must all be lying: "Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." HILLARY RODMAN CLINTON, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3 "In fact, religion experts say Islam is the second-largest religion in the United States... Islam has 5 million to 6 million members, followed by Judaism, with approximately 4.5 million..... And Islam is believed to be fastest-growing religion in the country, with half its expansion coming from new immigrants and the other half from conversions." By ELSA C. ARNETT Knight-Ridder News Service Already more than a billion-people strong, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion. ABCNEWS, Abcnews.com "Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the country." NEWSDAY, March 7, 1989, p.4 "Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States..." NEW YORK TIMES, Feb 21, 1989, p.1 Moslems are the world's fastest-growing group..." USA TODAY, The population reference bureau, Feb. 17, 1989, p.4A "Muhummed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities. " Encyclopedia Britannica "There are more Muslims in North America then Jews Now." Dan Rathers, CBSNEWS "Islam is the fastest growing religion in North America." TIMES MAGAZINE "Islam continues to grow in America, and no one can doubt that!" CNN, December 15, 1995 "The religion of Islam is growing faster than any other religion in the world." MIKE WALLACE, 60 MINUTES And as I said before, the great majority of these are women : http://nadeem.lightuponlight.com/ISLAMIC%20SERVER%2001/News%20-%20Islam%20Conversions%20Continue%20Despite%20Harrasment.MP3
your agrument is based on a logical fallacy its called Argumentum ad Populum. basically saying that somethings true because a lot of people believe its true , at one time people believed the world was flat it wasnt, and just because a lot of people believed it to be that didnt effect the truth of its flatness or unflatness . http://atheism.about.com/od/logicalfallacies/a/numbers.htm most likely you can find more on this type of argument if you use one of the search engines. at the moment in much of the world people get a false view of mohammed because muslims are busy killing people who point out that he was a man with very low morality , this is the same situation that happened in nazi germany with critics of hitler . if people wish to leave islam in many countrys they are killed or persecuted, you can see what has happened to critics of islam in the west like theo van gogh or ayaan hirshi ali . so you can see that there is not a fair playing field , if you make a convert and that convert doesnt get the chance to hear the other side of the issue ,or if you keep people in the dark and stop them leaving a religion. how would having a high growth rate be anything to boast about anyway one of my friends has made a site with some counter arguments about the relative growth rate of islam http://members.lycos.nl/whatsthisthen/muslimsleavingislam.html http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8656
