Vegetarianism & abortion

Here's a nice little bit of ethical reasoning for you guys to have a pick at. I'm going to question the beliefs of one of my close friends...

This particular friend believes that abortion is absolutely wrong (and I would personally tend to agree, under many circumstances).

She considers the begginning of human life to be the fertilisation of an egg cell.
She also eats meat.

So she would consider it wrong to destroy a recently fertilised egg, but would find it perfectly acceptable to kill an animal such as a cow for food?

I'm no expert biologist, but is a cow not a much more sentient and advanced species than a tiny cluster of cells?

I think the obvious come-back to this is that a fertilised egg has the potential to develope into a human being, which is a much more advanced form of life than a cow or a chicken or any other animal.

But consider this. Given enough time, doesn't every form of life on the planet have the potential of developing into something just as sentient and intelligent as a human being?

What do you think, dudes?

 

Well, here's what I think.

Ideally, abortion should be illegal. As well as animal murder and cruelty as far as milking cows and such go.

However, no matter how wrong abortion is, making it illegal will never be a good solution. The second you make it illegal, you will have an incredibly high number of unsafe and illegal abortions; abortions that threaten or even take the lives of the mother. You will have an increased number of children who, although they aren't aborted, will be abandoned, and put up for adoption. There will be a wave of kids (in America, black and puerto rican children especially) that will need to be adopted but nobody will want to adopt. And it's not like just because abortions are illegal, people are going to stop having unprotected sex.

The day you make abortion illegal is the day you open up a can of worms from Hell. That's why it can't be illegal, despite how immoral it is.

I believe in politics that deal with how the world is, not how the world should be. Thus, I think that abortion must remain legal. However, I also think that, the best we can do with anything is to use it. The same way that American Indians would use every part of an animal they killed, we should also do the same. Mothers who want an abortion should only be allowed to have them if they have a recommendation from their doctor, and only if their life and/or the child's life will be very challenged (i.e. a poor homeless single mother).

These mothers should be asked, upon having the abortion, to donate the fetus to, say, stem cell research, or other scientific drives. This goes on the same principal as using all the parts of an animal you kill, even though you couldn't really avoid killing it. Donation wouldn't be mandatory, but we would have a lot more research into finding cures for diseases if donation was a valid option. All you'd have to explain is that, once you have an abortion, the situation can only be morally improved by using the fetus instead of just discarding it. Then, the life-to-be will not still be taken in vain.

Either way, for the same reason that a minor is under the jurisdiction of their parent until they come of reasonable age, I feel that a fetus is under the jurisdiction of the mother until it is born. We call it a fetus before it's born; not a baby.

And, uh, regardless ... I think eating eggs (whether chicken or human or otherwise) is immoral.

 

going with both posts...
mainly hikaru's...
would you eat a human's egg?
ugh, i think not.
in other words, i agree.

anyway, if you take a look at anything political, pretty much everyone has their hypocrisies when it comes down to it. the same people who dont believe in abortion, will stand by capital punishment [im not saying all, im saying some people...just so you know im not generalizing]... there have even been events where pro-lifers have taken it as far as shooting the people that walk into an abortion clinic and/or the doctors... and you have to ask yourself.... how does that make any sense? The world is full of people who have STRONG opinions and they aren't all going to be the same, so nothing is ever going to make sense or fit together properly. At the same time there are people who walk through life, completely ignorant, and those people don't help change the world we live in either... either way, there is no utopia, so we have to make do with what we got.

President Bush is a horrible example, because he's a bastard, but look at how filled with hypocrisy he is... He stands by capital punishment, but is Pro-life... says he's pro-life, but starts a war... also is a rancher who eats shitloads of meat and the like... and well, you get my point... and there's just massive amounts of people like that, sadly.

And going along with what your friend has said... I just came to realize that many humans put human life before any other life form ... I hate to assume, but she or he sounds as if she's a firm believer that humans are the "top" ...the superior.

If that makes any sense.

Thinking that way, to us, may sound absurd...but somehow it makes sense to people

 

more of my 2 cents:
im neither pro life or pro choice ...
i dont agree with abortion when it comes down to a woman just not WANTING a child...
but at the same time I don't think it should or can be outlawed for these reasons:
say a young girl is molested by her father or another relative... either A) she's too young to have a child and make a mature impression on another life or B) the baby could end up having problems mentally [mental handicaps and the like] because of that... and if not that, their life is still going to be a complicated one at that being that their parents are family members ....
Also... I feel that any woman that is raped should have the right to have an abortion, seeing as how in no way did SHE make the mistake or ignore protection... she didnt have the choice.... I especially feel this way if it pertains to a young girl being raped.
Even if she chose to put the child up for adoption, think of how much of a painful, constant reminder of her rape it would be to carry the child for nine months.

I think abortion by no means should be taken lightly, but to be completely outlawed would have its wrongs as well.

they've tried outlawing it before, and what happened? tons of girls were trying to give themselves abortions using coat hangers... i feel if a girl feels that strongly about it, then she should have it done safely instead of hurting herself with a fucking coat hanger.

And, I'm vegan... so that may sound hypocritical in some ways, but mostly everything on this earth is situational. having a world full of black and white, set rules, doesn't leave room for any developement.

So when relating to your friend, to her I might sound like the hypocrite. Who knows.

 

Pretty much agree with the above.


I'm pro choice by default. Probably wouldn't have one myself, but am not going to deny anyone else the right to make choices about their lives/bodies. Works with the philosophy of Don't criticise what you can't understand. (which is why hard core pro-life men piss me off, yeah you go through childbirth then you can talk)
There are enough fucked up children and crappy/reluctant parents in the world, so best not up the statistics.

Stick with a 'for the greater good' stance.

Yeah never seen the logic of pro life but eats dead animals thing.

Hikaru: I think using fetuses for research is already done. Can't remember where I heard that though.

 

is human life more sacred than any other? i tend to think not.

 

Yeah, it was in the Presidential debates. I guess a while ago, Bush said that there would be no more fetuses allowed to be donated to science, because it is immoral (like he's an expert!). He said there would be about 60 total fetuses still available for research, but then he never made good on his word, and there are a grand total of about 10, in the United States at least.

That's 10 fetuses out of ... countless thousands of abortions. That's pathetic. We can do better, by letting those unborn babies not go to waste.

 

while i think it should be a last resort, I think early stage abortions should be legal.

i don't think we should give something that is only a potential human the rights of a full human, for we don't let 5 year olds drive because they will one day grow into 15 year olds; a baby can't vote now because it it will one day be an 18 year old...

also, I think that up until the foetus is viable, up until it can be cared for by a volunteer, I thkn abortion is not so probelematic as some people think - the foetus is merely a parasite if it cannot function outside the mother's body.

 

A lot of people, I believe, would say that human life is indeed more sacred than the life of animals. But I, for one, agree with you on this one. All life is important.

 

important and equal are VERY different. If we hold animals to be equal, how can we continue to live the way we do? How dare anyone build a house that could kill or displace animals? How dare we NOT allow an equal being to vote? It's kinda foolish to think they're equal. Just because they're not equal doesnt mean we should automatically kill them, though.


Hikaru:

Bush said the federal government will not pay for stem cell research...he hasnt outlawed private companies from doing stem cell research..atleast not to my knowledge. Hopefully congress overrides bush on this though..

 

I also think that abortion should stay legal but I don't think it should be used as often as it is. The only reasons women should get abortions is in the case of rape, insest, or if the mother/baby's life is in danger. It should NEVER be illegal. Like others have mentionedd, that would create another level of problems.

 

A good point.

I see things this way: All sentient beings, by virtue of being sentient beings, have certain inalienable rights that are not to be infringed upon. Such as, the right to life, and the right to freedom.

That being said, humans have more rights because humans have bonded together in order to sacrifice some rights to give us other rights. Thus, in human governments, humans have higher rights than animals. However, our human governments have failed to acknowledge the innate rights that all sentient beings possess.

Well I honestly can't say I'm knowledgable about the subject. However, I would think that the private companies, while research hasn't been outlawed entirely, has been made stagnant because no new specimens are allowed to be acquired.

Regardless, it's also my hope that Congress gives Bush the finger. =P

 

Not completely related to the topic, but isn't it bullshit how Bush seems to have control over the fate of human lives... in every aspect.
He's trying control abortion [TRYING to outlaw it], he sends our young men to war and tries to recruit many more along with that, he's all for capital punishment....
etc, etc.

It's sad that right now every human living in the US pretty much has their fate decided by our imperialistic leader, Bush. I'm honestly scared for this country... Call me paranoid, but I'm really afraid of [in the future] Bush attempting to overthrow the government and become exactly like the man he recently destroyed [sadam]

Ok. enough of my paranoia that is completely off topic...

 

one more thought to add to my last post, hes not just controlling our fates, but others around the world...
Iraq mainly

it literally scares the shit out of me.

 

Interesting views. I value 'quality of life' above 'life'. So if an unborn soul can be spared the agony of a horrible existence, then I'm all in favor of abortion. Example: I spay/neuter my pets.

Sure, you're probably asking "who determines what a 'horrible existence' is?" Well, no one really knows, but all things being equal, the best authority is the parent. Definitely not George W. Bush.

Regarding animals & vegetarianism: I have a pretty good idea that animals enjoy life (in the absence of human contamination). By default, their quality of life is nominal. That's why I am particularly wounded when I hear of humans encroaching on nature. That includes consuming as well as breeding livestock.

 

A little off topic, yes, but very true.